Author Topic: Classical stupidities  (Read 19319 times)

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Kullervo

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #60 on: November 27, 2008, 07:15:09 AM »
I still sometimes catch myself saying "ahp" instead of "opus", as in "Beethoven's 5th Symphony, 'ahp' 67." :D

Mark G. Simon

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #61 on: November 27, 2008, 07:43:50 AM »
Already done to some extent with Dalbavie and his notion of "metatonality".

If the idea catches on with the musical community at large so that it becomes intrinsic to the way people think of music, then it will have succeeded .

Offline some guy

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #62 on: November 27, 2008, 10:51:11 AM »
All sound has a pitch
Well, all sounds can be perceived as higher or lower, yes. I was referring to the distinction between pitched and unpitched that has pitched sounds consisting of periodic waveforms and nonpitched sounds as nonperiodic. That's all.

don't risk confusing any of these 'methods', 'camps', 'trends', 'gimmicks' et al. with real musical substance.
Whether or not the words "real musical substance" have any content could probably be debated until kingdom come, and beyond, but that's not what the topic was at all. The topic was whether or not tonality and atonality are the only things going on in the twentieth century. Not whether any of those things are any good or not, but whether they could be/should be part of the discussion. In any case, since "'methods', 'camps', 'trends', 'gimmicks' et al." will determine what kind of music will result, they are certainly legitimate topics even if we're foolhardy enough to be discussing "real musical substance."

Don't risk confusing your own tastes, opinions, prejudices with real musical acumen. If a person who has listened to music carefully all his life, who enjoys Bach's St. Matthew Passion and Beethoven's Ninth and Bartók's string quartets and Stockhausen's Hymnen--if that person can also get pleasure from Cage's Cartridge Music and Karkowski's One and Many and Mumma's Hornpipe, then the odds are that the latter three have as much "musical substance" as the former four, even if they do nothing for you. Just a thought.

Offline some guy

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2008, 01:18:54 PM »
So you would argue that there is no real substance found in the works of say, J.S. Bach, Brahms or Wagner?

No, I would not.

Yea lots of experimenting took place, so what, most of it falls under the masquerading failed 'invalid' category I mentioned a few posts up though. It is a meaningless distraction from the real stuff, no matter what they (or you) want to call it.

A category you have made up. It's a meaningless category and distracts you from ever really hearing or enjoying quite a lot of music, I would guess. Fitting the facts to your theory instead of your theory to the facts. (And why you want to limit others similarly is anyone's guess.)

Which allows me--finally!!--to contribute to this thread according to the OPs original intent. I was at a new music concert a couple of years back. There was a piano piece being played, and it became clear to me that the pianist was not going to be doing any of the playing directly on the harp that I enjoy. I was disappointed. About halfway through, I noticed that my disappointment was keeping me from enjoying, from even hearing, the music right in front of me. Fortunately, I was able to readjust, to give up my expectations, my desires for what the piece should do, in time to hear what the piece was actually saying and enjoy it on its own terms.

Offline some guy

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2008, 04:11:24 PM »
Hahaha, I've been wondering when you'd run out of arguments and fall back on your trademark dismissal.

Subotnick

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2008, 05:06:12 PM »
I remember many moons ago when I first came across two different recordings of Beethoven's 5th. There was a few minutes difference in the running time between the two and I thought, "OMG! They've missed bits out!"


Offline some guy

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #66 on: November 27, 2008, 06:04:56 PM »
With 'some guy' claiming tonal music is essentially passe...and then buying into and touting things like 'anti-music', 'danger-music, 'noise-music', 'random-music', 'multi-media music'...and so many other ridiculous things as being major hip & happening modern 20th century musical extraveganzas who needs an arguement, the cluelessness is pretty much self evident from the get-go. Sorry bud.

Your second straw man in this conversation. I was neither "touting" these things (one of which you just made up) nor claiming them as "major hip & happening modern 20th century musical extraveganzas" (sic). They are things that happened but which are never part of the discussion (which is dominated by the tonality/atonality thing). In this discussion that has been my only point about them.

By the way, my dear James, if my cluelessness (ad hominem) is self evident, then surely it's otiose to respond at all, eh? Even with "pfff whatever..." Sorry dude, ya can't wriggle out of this one that easily!

Offline Diletante

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #67 on: November 27, 2008, 06:31:57 PM »
Heh, I find it kind of funny how this thread was supposed to be light and somehow ended up as a tonality vs. atonality discussion. I guess every forum has one of those topics that always come up, no matter what the current talk is.

Quote
New topic: My socks smell.

Poster 1: My socks really smell!
Poster 2: Haha, but mine smell worse!
Poster 3: Mine smell worse than Berg's music.
Poster 4: Say what?
Poster 3: Look, I'm doing him a favor calling it 'music' at all.

etc. etc.

-----------------

Anyway, another stupidity of mine, but this hasn't got much to do with classical music ignorance, it's just a general stupidity:

I put on Chopin's Piano Concerto No. 1 on my radio for a friend of mine and I told him:

"Now, this is Chopin's piano concerto. Actually, it's the first piano concerto. Chopin composed two piano concertos: the first and the second."

 :P
Orgullosamente diletante.

Offline some guy

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #68 on: November 28, 2008, 11:09:50 AM »
For all the other members of the forum other than James, I'll add installations to my previous list of twentieth century practices other than tonality/atonality. Installations have been a significant component of music making in the past fifty or sixty years. As I was glancing over my collection just now, I saw Christina Kubisch's name and realized my omission. Brandon LaBelle, Michele Bokanowski, Natasha Barrett are a few others who do or have done installations.

And I'll go ahead and repeat, in case this point's been lost in the shuffle, my previous suggestion to everyone to be less cautious, more open (like Zappa's parachute, you know). You could let other people decide for you what the masterpieces are that will constitute your listening experience, but where's the adventure in that?

Offline some guy

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #69 on: November 28, 2008, 12:08:30 PM »
James, you're hardly worth the powder and shot, but I am curious. Have you actually ever heard any of the stuff you persistently diss? Or are you just talking through your hat? It does appear that you don't actually know what you're talking about but are just blowing hot air. If the best you've got is "pfff," I suppose that's what we'll have to keep thinking, eh? I think your persistent efforts to make everyone else close their minds as tightly as yours are doomed to failure. Hope so, anyway!

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #70 on: November 28, 2008, 02:43:55 PM »
I hope you chaps are about done with this now. It is verging on being silly. Point(s) made, let's move along.

8)

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Offline Diletante

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #71 on: November 28, 2008, 03:07:38 PM »
I guess this could sort of count as an stupidity:

An acquaintance of mine once told me that he had met this old man who was into classical music and had a vast collection. When the old man asked him if he wanted to hear something, he said he wanted to hear "Für Elise". He then told me: "Wow, and he put on 'Für Elise' for me. It was great!"

 :(
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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2008, 03:19:08 PM »
I guess this could sort of count as an stupidity:

An acquaintance of mine once told me that he had met this old man who was into classical music and had a vast collection. When the old man asked him if he wanted to hear something, he said he wanted to hear "Für Elise". He then told me: "Wow, and he put on 'Für Elise' for me. It was great!"

 :(

Yes, a true rarity. What were the odds?  ;D

8)

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Offline The new erato

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2008, 03:33:03 AM »
I guess this could sort of count as an stupidity:

An acquaintance of mine once told me that he had met this old man who was into classical music and had a vast collection. When the old man asked him if he wanted to hear something, he said he wanted to hear "Für Elise". He then told me: "Wow, and he put on 'Für Elise' for me. It was great!"

 :(
I got my first "Für Elise" about a month ago (in the Brendel brilliant box) despite having approx 200 Beethoven CDs already.  :(

Offline Diletante

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2008, 03:57:26 AM »
When I was a kid taking piano lessons I thought Bela Bartok was a woman, just like Anna-Magdalena Bach.
In those days I also believed Hanna Barbera was a woman.

Me too hehe.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I used to believe Richard Strauss was related to Johann Strauss Jr. and lived in the same time. I didn't think he was his father, but maybe his uncle or something.  :P
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Kullervo

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2008, 04:30:02 AM »
One thing I was never stupid enough to believe, however, not even when I was going through the stupidest, most embarrassing of all human stages, the teen years, - was that a preference for musical second-fiddles over the great composers, is a sign of maturity.

It's just a mark of mediocrity...

It's not a sign of maturity, nor it is a mark of mediocrity — it's simply personal taste.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2008, 04:31:12 AM »
It's not a sign of maturity, nor it is a mark of mediocrity — it's simply personal taste.

Hear, hear!
"Liberty and democracy are eternal enemies, and every one knows it who has ever given any sober reflection to the matter." - H. L. Mencken

DavidW

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2008, 05:11:12 AM »
One thing I was never stupid enough to believe, however, not even when I was going through the stupidest, most embarrassing of all human stages, the teen years, - was that a preference for musical second-fiddles over the great composers, is a sign of maturity.

It's just a mark of mediocrity...

That just sounds more like justification for spending lots of money to hear esoteric music and add to the cd collection.  When you think about it chastising people for preferring Mozart to Dittersdorf is merely defensive.

Online Christo

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2008, 12:26:22 PM »
One thing I was never stupid enough to believe, however, not even when I was going through the stupidest, most embarrassing of all human stages, the teen years, - was that a preference for musical second-fiddles over the great composers, is a sign of maturity.

It's just a mark of mediocrity...

Of course Eduard Tubin, Vagn Holmboe, Ralph Vaughan Williams, or Joly Braga Santos, are pure geniuses. But I disagree with you that we better forget about their lesser gifted colleagues.  :)

Indeed, I personally sometimes found hints of genuine inspiration in minor composers like e.g. Mozart, Schubert, Brahms, even Richard Strauss. No doubt, a large part of their compositional work is of lesser interest and better forgotten. But do you really believe we shouldn't spoil our time with them at all?  ::)
… music is not only an 'entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Kullervo

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Re: Classical stupidities
« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2008, 12:34:42 PM »
Of course Eduard Tubin, Vagn Holmboe, Ralph Vaughan Williams, or Joly Braga Santos, are pure geniuses. But I disagree with you that we better forget about their lesser gifted colleagues.  :)

Indeed, I personally sometimes found hints of genuine inspiration in minor composers like e.g. Mozart, Schubert, Brahms, even Richard Strauss. No doubt, a large part of their compositional work is of lesser interest and better forgotten. But do you really believe we shouldn't spoil our time with them at all?  ::)

Christo has hit it on the mark. They're not 2nd-tier composers to those that love their music (although I'd argue against calling Dittersdorf a 2nd-tier composer — He's 3rd-tier, at best >:D).