Topic: Classical stupidities

[Opus106]

>> Two Orchestral Stupidities by Frank Zappa (published in 'Musician' magazine 1981)

"greedy bunch of mechanics"

[Opus106]

Yes, here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/v/VW_qa6swnOM

Thanks. That was good!

[some guy]

I used to think that composers writing tonal music in the 20th Century were "regressive". 

Sorry for the confusion. I meant that your making that statement was funny, not that thinking tonal composers were regressive was funny. Writing tonal music in the 20th century was regressive.

Doesn't mean the music is necessarily bad. The composers you mentioned--Sibelius, Nielsen, Delius, Honegger--all wrote decent stuff. Well, three out of four.

And many other fine composers over the next hundred years found ways to deal with the tonality of the past. But that's just the point. It's a system of the past. And we aren't living in the past. We're alive in 2008. Many things have happened since 1908. You can't really just behave, as a composer, as if none of that ever happened, can you?

[Kullervo]

Writing tonal music in the 20th century was regressive.

I should probably clarify as well — I used to think that only the avant-garde were the only composers that were relevant and that everyone that didn't fall in were "backsliders". The idea that tonality had an expiration date of about 1912 seems laughable to me. Vaughan Williams's 6th symphony (composed in 1946) is just as much of its time as Boulez's Notations (1945).

Well, three out of four.

Not many Delians on this forum!

[rappy]

Tonality is not a system of the past, it's a natural phenomenon of the human nature. The human spirit naturally relates a chain of notes to a fundamental note.

You can't really just behave, as a composer, as if none of that ever happened, can you?

No, you can't. You can for example learn that the idea of replacing a system which fulfils the human way of percieving notes by an arbitrarily constructed system the way Schönberg and his followers was a meander.

It's like saying: Let's stop flavouring with salt, we must find something new: now you may only ingredient twice if you've used all the other ingredients before.

(Of course tonality doesn't mean I-V-I)

Sorry, can't express myself too well in English.

[some guy]

Well, three out of four.

Not many Delians on this forum!

Hah! How did you know? (Good one, Corey!!)

[eyeresist]

When I was 14, I registered at GMG and asked why Romantic composers didn't write as many symphonies as Haydn and Mozart did.

That's not a stupid question.
 

the liberating twelve-tone method did not make tonality obsolete

Liberating? Surely serialism is no less constricting than conventional tonality.
 

[some guy]

the liberating twelve-tone method did not make tonality obsolete

Plus there were lots of things going on in the last century besides the liberating twelve-tone method, some of them having naught to do with tonality in any way, a- or pan- or serial or whatever (serialism being a kind of tonality, after all, or at least to do with pitch being at the center of things still).

One frequently sees the twentieth century described as an arch: tonality - serialism - tonality. This is not simply an oversimplification; it is a grotesque perversion of what actually went on in those hundred years.

[c#minor]

ahh and the arugument begins. "Tonal is better", "No post-tonal is better" blah blah blah. We have both, why not enjoy them both 

[c#minor]

my contribution to this thread is when i was utterly confused why four "songs" were listed under one symphony.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Tonality is not a system of the past, it's a natural phenomenon of the human nature. The human spirit naturally relates a chain of notes to a fundamental note.

Not necessarily. What's "natural" is the human imagination. Trying to curb it is what's unnatural.

If your perception is such you can't stomach dissonant music that's one thing - and, yes, completely natural.

But those who warm to dissonance have all the "natural" hardware you have. We're not mutants. 

It's like saying: Let's stop flavouring with salt, we must find something new:

There are any NUMBER of ways to flavor food. Salt being only one. No reason at all this philosophy can't be applied to music!!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

ahh and the arugument begins. "Tonal is better"

Yes, and it's ironic in the extreme such sentiments should show up in a thread about past musical misconceptions!

The future may be different for them!

[Chrone]

"For years I thought the Goldberg Variations was something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg tried on their wedding night."

(although my vote for funniest line in that movie is "That's OK, we can walk to the curb from here.")

[Chrone]

"For years I thought the Goldberg Variations was something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg tried on their wedding night."

(although my vote for funniest line in that movie is "That's OK, we can walk to the curb from here.")

Did I just confuse Annie Hall with Stardust Memories?

The horror. The horror.

[Kullervo]

ahh and the arugument begins. "Tonal is better", "No post-tonal is better" blah blah blah. We have both, why not enjoy them both 

That was my point.

Yes, and it's ironic in the extreme such sentiments should show up in a thread about past musical misconceptions!

The future may be different for them!

For whom? Currently sitting on my desk are Boulez's Le marteau sans maître, a box set of Fauré's chamber music and a recording of Delius's Sea Drift. Surely that isn't hiding behind garden fences, is it?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

For whom?

For those who criticize dissonant/serial music (the anti-modernists).

Currently sitting on my desk are Boulez's Le marteau sans maître, a box set of Fauré's chamber music and a recording of Delius's Sea Drift. Surely that isn't hiding behind garden fences, is it?

No, no - that's just the sort of eclecticism that does the body good! But some people don't see it that way. Especially in regards to music such as Boulez.

My dream is one day it'll 'click' for them.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Did I just confuse Annie Hall with Stardust Memories?

Well, your second quote is from Annie Hall:

"That's OK, we can walk to the curb from here."

Don't know about the first quote.

[eyeresist]

It's like saying: Let's stop flavouring with salt, we must find something new: now you may only ingredient twice if you've used all the other ingredients before.

Coffee with salt instead of sugar is The Coffee Of The Future!

Boulez: "Anyone who has not seen the necessity of salt in their coffee instead of sugar is USELESS!"

Schoenberg: "I hope that one day the postman will whistle happily whilst putting salt in his coffee."

Pretty much everyone else: "From now on, I'm drinking tea."
 

[The Six]

Tonality is not a system of the past, it's a natural phenomenon of the human nature. The human spirit naturally relates a chain of notes to a fundamental note.

Doesn't primitivism show the opposite, that tonality is a sophisticated system, and not something that comes naturally to humans?

[Mozart]

I used to do pushups to Mozart's 40th symphony...before I even knew anything about classical music. The first movement was just energetic and made me want to keep going. My classical music folder was a few single movement pieces of various composers...

and the first time I was actually moved by a piece of classical music...I was quite stoned  (shsshhh)

It was Beethoven's moonlight sonata...and the third movement, I just couldn't follow how 1 person could be playing it. I felt the noted pounding on my brain and it felt all tingly.

And the first opera I ever heard was Mozart's Figaro, I would listen on my way to class. And of course like in any crowded school it takes 20 minutes to find a parking spot, so I would listen to it really loud with the windows down and I'd be singing along.

Ohh also, I would listen to Vivaldi really loud in my car, one of the first pieces I heard were the 4 seasons..and everytime before the 3rd movement of summer it would get quiet...and then BOOOM! It would scare me to death and almost caused me to crash 2-3 times hehe. Ok not crash but move the steering wheel a little.


And I used to listen to a paganini violin concerto over and over, that was pretty stupid.

Haha ok last one, I was listening to Brahms 1st symphony during a math test...and I just started humming along while everyone was hysterically cracking up. And then I couldn't get the tune out of my head...lets see 5^4= dararara