Author Topic: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music  (Read 75258 times)

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Offline FideLeo

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2007, 08:09:03 AM »
Not discounting, simply overlooking the fact that you were refering to Solomon too. But the fact that I'm not familiar with the Ensemble Florilegium undoubtedly was a factor in this oversight.

Q

They have been too busy with Haydn, Telemann (and Bolivian baroque music) to give us more Bach, or you might have noticed their presence more readily.  I heard their recording of the Musical Offering is very worth knowing though - on the level of Trio Sonnerie's account (Virgin Verita).
http://www.florilegium.org.uk/
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:57:36 AM by fl.traverso »
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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2007, 08:09:05 AM »
This?  The new "one-plus-one" version has a rather charming cover picture, too, if stylistically about 80-100 years too late for the music.  :)



Yup, that's the one.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 05:39:08 AM by Que »

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2007, 08:23:02 AM »
Yup, that's the one.

Thanks Don - this may have been the most affordable version of the set ever. 
BTW one of its previous incarnations looks like this, which contains part of the
original cover art.

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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2007, 09:23:15 AM »
Yes very true, even though there are those who insist that the older versions not only sound different from the new ones in "the collector's edition" but better, too.  In this regard, music
cd's are a bit like books - older editions may command a higher price in the used market, depending on how common they are.  I have the Goebel Bach in the "Galleria" edition, which
was released even earlier than your 5-disc "Kammermusik" set.  The differences between
them, if any, may be of interest to audiophiles only.  :)


There are differencies in sound?  ???

How an Earth do they bother tinker with the sound between releases?
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

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Offline Bunny

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2007, 10:19:00 AM »
So say the collecting audiophiles. A popular line of argument from them is, differences in sound quality don't just happen in between masterings but in between pressings also.  Unless one knows the cd manufacturing business intimately, it would be difficult to convince audiophiles otherwise. 


That was true of the analog process used for vinyl LPs, because the plate that was used to press the records eventually would show signs of wear, but cds are not "pressed" but are burned directly by a laser from digital information that doesn't change from the 1st burn to the last burn.  If digital tape was used for the first master, that can deteriorate, but anyone can make an exact copy of any cd, so clearly there's not going to be change unless there has been remastering done.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2007, 10:45:58 AM »
Er...I think cd's that we buy are indeed pressed.  Only the master presses are cut by laser. 

Yes, real CDs are pressed even if CD-R discs are burned with a laser.

Well, try telling this to them.  I do think that wave files
generated by different cd drives/ripping programs do
not sound identical, even though in theory they should.

I don't even try to. They can believe whatever they want.

Most people do not understand the fundamental differences between digital and analog information. Things that concern analog sound do not necessorily concern digital sound at all and vice versa. 
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2007, 11:16:43 AM »
I am not satisfied with Goebels Adagio in BWV 1018.
The harpsichord is soooo weak.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2007, 11:20:34 AM »
I am not satisfied with Goebels Adagio in BWV 1018.
The harpsichord is soooo weak.

Weak how?  Pray tell.  ;)
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2007, 11:32:07 AM »
Mea culpa.  In conclusion, dB 71, please don't feel depressed if only because you don't own the newest and cheapest version of the Goebel/Hill recording.  

It's not a problem.  ;)

Weak how?  Pray tell.  ;)

Violin is loud. Harpsichord is quiet. In this Adagio especially the instruments should be equal.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page

Offline FideLeo

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2007, 11:44:18 AM »
Violin is loud. Harpsichord is quiet. In this Adagio especially the instruments should be equal.

I think you've got a point here even though it is fairly common for Tonmeisters to balance the violin a bit more forward in this repertory (eg. the W&W Ronez version mentioned above).  I don't have the Goebel recording with me so I can't tell exactly, but it could be the harpsichordist's decision also to downplay the right-hand melody in a two- or three-part texture (playing on a different manual, using the lute stop, etc.).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2007, 10:16:46 AM by fl.traverso »
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Offline Expresso

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2007, 02:52:51 AM »

These are the "Sonatas & partitas for violin" i prefer:



Goran Sollsher is rarely mentioned, but i like his suites for lute:


Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2007, 01:58:18 AM »
Que, my recommandations, written for another forum half a year ago:


Sonatas and Suites for solo violin:

HIP:
Rachel Podger (Channel Classics)
She really makes music of these almost unplayable works

non-HIP:
Nathan Milstein (DG)

Julia Fischer (Penta Tone Classics)
She is very young, and her interpretation is not always “mature”. But she has got a rare command of the violin (resulting in “shivering down the spine”). She plays the four part fugues and the virtuosic last movements of the Sonatas apparently completely effortless, actually reminding me of the super human virtuosity of the young recorder player Michala Petri and with much the same tendency to mechanical rhythm. She is less successful in the more reflective pieces, most notably the Preludes and slow third movements of the sonatas.

And not to forget

Nigel North´s brilliant arrangements for luth (Linn Classics)
And
Gustav Leonhardts arrangements for harpsichord (German Harmonia Mundi)


Suites for solo violoncello.

HIP:
Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) Meditative, introvert, often a bit sombre.

non-HIP:
Morten Zeuthen (Classico) My preferred version – not because he is Danish and even a distant relative (I don´t know him personally), but because his playing is agile and very dancing, pure joy.

Ralph Kirchbaum (Virgin) Pure beauty, both the instrument and his way of handling it.

Pierre Fournier (DG) His noble interpretation does much more for me, than the (dare I say it?) fuzzy Casals or the creamy Rostropowitsch.


Sonates for traverse flute and cembalo / continuo:

HIP:
Frantz Brüggen / Gustav Leonhardt (Sony)
Only the authentic sonatas.

non-HIP:
Eckhardt Haupt / Christina Schornsheim (Berlin Classics)
Even the non-authentic sonatas.


Sonatas for violin and cembalo / continuo:

HIP:
John Holloway / Davitt Moroney (Virgin)

Elisabeth Blumenstock / John Butt (French Harmonia Mundi)

Both beautiful and expressive interpretations.


Sonatas for viola da gamba and cembalo:

HIP:
Vittorio Ghielmi / Lorenzo Ghielmi (Ars Musici)
Lorenzo Ghielmi plays on a period fortepiano, rather interesting combination.

Ekkehard Weber / Robert Hill (Ars Musici)
Robert Hill plays on a lute-harpsichord, an interesting combination too.

John Dornenburg / Malcolm Proud (Brilliant Classics – part of the Bach set)


Musicalisches Opfer:

HIP:
Jordi Savall with the Hantaï brothers (Astreé)

Gustav Leonhardt with the Kuijken brothers (Sony)
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Offline FideLeo

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2007, 03:04:40 AM »
Suites for solo violoncello.

HIP:
Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) Meditative, introvert, often a bit sombre.



I unexpectedly ran into this one and it is indeed a very special interpretation. 
In the scordatura fifth suite (on a third disc shared with the gamba sonatas)
the music really GROWLs, thanks in no small part to Kuijken's skillful use
of his (probably inauthentic) Amati.  Sound is impressive throughout.



Available from sources in Europe.
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Offline Que

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2007, 12:08:56 AM »
Que, my recommandations, written for another forum half a year ago:

Premont, much appreciated, as always! :)

Some items that caught my interest.

Quote
Sonatas and Suites for solo violin:

Nigel North´s brilliant arrangements for luth (Linn Classics)
And
Gustav Leonhardts arrangements for harpsichord (German Harmonia Mundi)


Suites for solo violoncello.

HIP:
Wieland Kuijken (Arcana) Meditative, introvert, often a bit sombre.

Sonatas for viola da gamba and cembalo:

Ekkehard Weber / Robert Hill (Ars Musici)
Robert Hill plays on a lute-harpsichord, an interesting combination too.

Q
À chacun son goût.

Offline Que

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2007, 12:16:16 AM »
I'm looking for a chamber music version of "Die Kunst der Fuge", preferably HIP.
Any suggestions?


Thanks! :)

Q
À chacun son goût.

sunnyside_up

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2007, 12:46:18 AM »
Que, I really love this one....the different instruments used really bring out the different strands of polyphony.....



Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2007, 04:03:46 AM »
I'm looking for a chamber music version of "Die Kunst der Fuge", preferably HIP.
Any suggestions?


Thanks! :)

Q

Since The Art of Fugue is a keyboardwork, I  haven´t investigated the chamber versions in depth, but still I know some of them.

Leaving the non-HIP versions from the 1950es and 1960es aside (some of which are very good though e.g. Münchinger, Ristenpart I and II, Redel I, Munclinger, Scherchen III) I know the following HIP chamber versions:

Collegium Aureum with Fritz Neumeyer (DHM ca. 1968) is rather conventional as to conception even if played one player per part on period instruments. 

Loeki Stardust (recorder) Quartet (Channel Classics) omits a few of the Contrapuncti. I have so far listened to it twice finding it a little dull and not a par with these artists usual spirited performances.

CI / Rinaldo Alessandrini (Opus 111) String ensemble, a few woodwinds and harpsichord. Instrumentation seems a little casual but execution crisp and transparent and certainly  pedagogic. Much to enjoy here. Available as a twoofer (midprice) with a collection of Bach Harpsichord concertos.

Haven´t heard Savall. It is on my wish list, but I find it rather expensive. His Musical Offering on the other hand is exellent, so odds for his AoF are favourable

Ensemble Fretwork (gambenquartet) (Harmonia Mundi Fr.). Haven´t heard all of it, but what I heard, was stiff and dull.

The recording released by Ottavo with the Viotta Ensemble and Jan Willem de Vriend uses modern instruments (soloists all over) and the instrumentation is strange, similar to Weberns orchestration of the 6 part Ricercare from The Musical Offering, every theme being distributed between different instruments. Irritating even if the playing and the recording is crystal clear and the result as such rather beautiful. Suited for adventurous listeners.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 09:32:14 AM by premont »
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Offline Bunny

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2007, 06:12:27 AM »
Since The Art of Fugue is a keyboardwork, I  haven´t investigated the chamber versions in depth, but still I know some of them.

Leaving the non-HIP versions from the 1950es and 1960es aside (some of which are very good though e.g. Münchinger, Ristenpart I and II, Redel I, Munclinger, Scherchen III) I know the following HIP chamber versions:

Collegium Aureum with Fritz Neumeyer (DHM ca. 1968) is rather conventional as to conception even if played one player per part on period instruments. 

Loeki Stardust (recorder) Quartet (Channel Classics) omits a few of the Contrapuncti. I have so far listened to it twice finding it a little dull and not a par with these artists usual spirited performances.

CI / Rinaldo Alessandrini (Opus 111) String ensemble, a few woodwinds and harpsichord. Instrumentation seems a little casual but execution crisp and transparent and certainly  pedagogic. Much to enjoy here. Available as a twoofer (midprice) with a collection of Bach Harpsichord concertos.

Haven´t heard Savall. It is on my wish list, but I find it rather expensive. His Musical Offering on the other hand is exellent, so odds for his AoF are favourable

Ensemble Fretwork (gambenquartet) (Harmonia Mundi Fr.). Haven´t heard all of it, but what I heard, was stiff and dull.

The recording released by Ottavo with the Viotta Ensemble and Jan Willem de Vriend uses modern instruments (soloists all over) and the instrumentation is strange, similar to Schönbergs orchestration of the 6 part Ricercare from The Musical Offering, every theme being distributed between different instruments. Irritating even if the playing and the recording is crystal clear and the result as such rather beautiful. Suited for adventurous listeners.

I have this, and agree completely with premont's evaluation.  I actually bought this for the harpsichord concertos, but the AOF is actually better.

If you don't mind the sound of modern violins, the Emerson Quartet has a very well done string quartet version of the AOF that is also quite good.  It's also widely available at good prices.

Offline Expresso

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2007, 10:04:48 AM »

That's a very good recording of the Art of Fugue... some of the movements are played by a string quartet and some others by two harpsichordists (Staier-Hill).

Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Bach Chamber and Instrumental music
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2007, 01:03:52 PM »
That's a very good recording of the Art of Fugue... some of the movements are played by a string quartet and some others by two harpsichordists (Staier-Hill).

I didn´t mention this recording above, because I consider it to be a near-harpsichord version.
About half of it is played in a reliable way on one or two harpsichords by Robert Hill and Andreas Staier. But I think Hill´s own recording for Haenssler is far superior to and much more integrated than this MAK version. Even the Contrapuncti played by string quartet in the MAK version are rushed and make in my ears an uneasy nervous impression. And the quartet´s all dominating dynamic shadings are IMO out of style, and make me think of something like Schuberts string quartets. So I can´t recommend this recording.
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heldigt nok at tiden går.