Author Topic: Cato's Grammar Grumble  (Read 357261 times)

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Offline Ken B

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4320 on: April 16, 2018, 02:43:24 PM »
Here’s some help: try to find it here: 144 pages of official road signs.
http://www.rsr.transports.gouv.qc.ca/


And you turn that into a blanket statement about Québec road signs ? Fake news. !

My Parisianfriend tells me some of those signs are in French!
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline André

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4321 on: April 16, 2018, 04:13:41 PM »
Reminds me of a gag from a movie. A bunch of Americans are trying to start a war with Canada, and they are driving on a Canadian highway with a sign "Death to Canada" on their vehicle. They are stopped by Canadian police who inform them, this is not allowed. They are required to display a French translation.

Another canadian bacon story  8)...


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pbfBzWJVbX4
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 04:17:56 PM by André »

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4322 on: April 17, 2018, 06:28:19 AM »
Great stuff! ;)

Not to forget what is sometimes said in choirs when standing too close:

Wachet auf! (Watch it, ouch!)
"I write to discover what I know."
 ― Flannery O'Connor

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4323 on: April 30, 2018, 08:38:31 AM »
And, for those of you who thought you cannot count ’em:

Change the world, one canned good at a time.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4324 on: May 01, 2018, 04:30:38 AM »
I spotted what I believe to be the word 'latter' used incorrectly by Cato himself!

I found myself listening to Goetterdaemmerung the most, followed by Das Rheingold, Die Walkuere, and Siegfried.

The latter was not uninteresting musically, and I did enjoy especially the interaction between Mime and Siegfried.

The latter of four? Good grief!

Offline Ken B

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4325 on: May 01, 2018, 04:51:47 AM »
I spotted what I believe to be the word 'latter' used incorrectly by Cato himself!

The latter of four? Good grief!
Egads! He will probably explain that he was distracted by his older child!  >:D
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline André

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4326 on: May 01, 2018, 10:45:39 AM »
What would be the correct wording ?

Offline Ken B

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4327 on: May 01, 2018, 11:04:26 AM »
What would be the correct wording ?
Last. Latter is of two. Ceci, cela. Except it’s backwards in French (as ever ;).
And children are eldest not oldest.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline André

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4328 on: May 01, 2018, 11:11:01 AM »
Last. Latter is of two. Ceci, cela. Except it’s backwards in French (as ever ;).
And children are eldest not oldest.

I thought that latter referred to the last of a list/group.  In French we’d say ce dernier/cette dernière, meaning the last one mentioned.


I’ve learned something. Thanks ! :)

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4329 on: May 02, 2018, 08:59:31 AM »
I spotted what I believe to be the word 'latter' used incorrectly by Cato himself!

The latter of four? Good grief!

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

Quote
"Can latter be used of more than two?"

There is some controversy afoot regarding the use of latter, particularly regarding its use to refer to items in a series. Many commentators insist that latter can only be used of a series that consists of two:

We have a chicken entree and a vegetarian entree: do you prefer the former or the latter?

When presented with a series of three or more, they say, anyone wishing to highlight the last item in the series should use last and not latter:

We had soup, fish, and dessert, and the last was uninspiring.

But our evidence shows that latter is used to refer to the last in a series regardless of number:


"After Ethel's action at Oxford, the ultimate sacrifice that symbolizes her self-discipline, the focus moves away to other members of her family for the latter third of the novel..."
— Melissa Schaub, Studies in the Novel, Spring 2007

"...I am getting crosser and snappier and sadder every minute straining and struggling to type and to read and to draw (the latter is the easiest)."
— James Thurber, letter, 9 June 1939

"...bee not over-power'd with policie, nor with enforcement of arguments, nor with the approach of Souldiers, and Troopers; the two first may seeme to perswade you, the latter may terrifie you into an everlasting undoing...
— A.L., To all the honest, wise, and grave-citizens of London, but more especially to all those that challenge an interest in the Common-Hall, 1648"

This use is common enough that most modern dictionaries make mention of it in their definitions for latter—and indeed they should, since our evidence for this particular use is several hundred years old. Despite this evidence, however, there are still those who object to its use; if you are concerned about such things, use last to refer to the last item in a series of three or more.
   0:)
COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

Offline Ken B

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4330 on: May 02, 2018, 09:03:55 AM »
From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
   0:)
Of course if you lower your standards then such things are allowed. Merriam-Webster defines literally as figuratively.

What next Cato? Good, better, better? Fast, faster, faster?
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4331 on: May 02, 2018, 09:06:09 AM »
A latter-day objection?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Ken B

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4332 on: May 02, 2018, 09:09:59 AM »
A latter-day objection?
Still a dichotomy between former days and latter ones. You can use the phrase of an objection made two days ago and so not on the last day.

Last minute reprieve, last chance saloon.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4333 on: May 02, 2018, 01:22:51 PM »
A latter-day objection?

A Latter-Day Saint?  0:)
COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4334 on: May 02, 2018, 11:31:55 PM »
From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

"...I am getting crosser and snappier and sadder every minute straining and struggling to type and to read and to draw (the latter is the easiest)."
— James Thurber, letter, 9 June 1939

"Last" to my mind has more of a finality about it. If it is an ongoing process, as in Thurber's example, or undefined as in "Latter-Day Saint", I'd say that "latter" is a better choice.

Someone could also carp about the prolix use of "and" in Thurber's letter. However, as the repetition conveys the frustration of choice, there is no need to submit it to the critiques of a juries or editors.
"I write to discover what I know."
 ― Flannery O'Connor

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4335 on: May 03, 2018, 03:11:53 AM »
"Last" to my mind has more of a finality about it. If it is an ongoing process, as in Thurber's example, or undefined as in "Latter-Day Saint", I'd say that "latter" is a better choice.

Someone could also carp about the prolix use of "and" in Thurber's letter. However, as the repetition conveys the frustration of choice, there is no need to submit it to the critiques of a juries or editors.

Amen!  Second-guessing James Thurber is probably not a good idea!  :D
COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

Offline Ken B

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4336 on: May 03, 2018, 04:28:46 AM »
as in "Latter-Day Saint", I'd say that "latter" is a better choice.


Latter day there is still a dichotomy between former and latter and so still latter of two not of many.

This supposed counter example doesn’t fit because Cato is saying you use latter for the LAST and the LAST day was yesterday. The phrase does not refer to yesterday.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline Cato

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4337 on: May 03, 2018, 04:35:57 AM »
Latter day there is still a dichotomy between former and latter and so still latter of two not of many.

This supposed counter example doesn’t fit because Cato is saying you use latter for the LAST and the LAST day was yesterday. The phrase does not refer to yesterday.

Not quite: I am saying that it is allowed (q.v. above), and personally have no objection to it.  Feel free to continue with using "latter" only for "the former...the latter" situations.   0:)
COWBOY (sitting down to a poker game for the first time): "Is this a game of chance?!"

- W. C. FIELDS  (as Cuthbert Twillie): "Uhh, not the way I play it, no." in  My Little Chickadee.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4338 on: May 03, 2018, 07:17:41 AM »
Latter day there is still a dichotomy between former and latter and so still latter of two not of many.


I don't see a dichotomy between former and latter day saints. Where is the cut off? Mother Teresa is a modern saint (although she and those like her may not be recognized by Mormons).
"I write to discover what I know."
 ― Flannery O'Connor

Offline Ken B

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Re: Cato's Grammar Grumble
« Reply #4339 on: May 03, 2018, 08:28:01 AM »
I don't see a dichotomy between former and latter day saints. Where is the cut off? Mother Teresa is a modern saint (although she and those like her may not be recognized by Mormons).
Latter Day Saints is the Mormon term for Mormons.
The cut off is  the time of the Bible vs the later Book of Mormon. That is EXPLICITLY what they mean by Latter-day Saints.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he is warm for life.