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Author Topic: Gurn's Classical Corner  (Read 217665 times)

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Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2009, 10:36:47 AM »
Congratulations, Gurn, for a very interesting new topic!

Just because I am an opera fan and - I love Stockhausen! - doesn't exclude me from responding. In my opera collection is Pierre le Grand by André Ernest Modeste Grétry, an opera about Peter the Great I enjoy very much.


« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 10:49:55 AM by Que »

ChamberNut

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2009, 10:39:21 AM »
In very curious to know, since I really enjoy Russian music, if there were any good Russian composers in the classical era (pre-Glinka)?

Offline Coopmv

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 10:41:23 AM »
After 15 years of listening to classical music, I've finally settled down to a favorite era. I have a lot of Baroque music that I truly enjoy

Baroque is my favorite period as well and I have thousands of LP's and CD's covering this era.

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 10:56:32 AM »
One of my first discoveries, was Paisiello, when I bought the soundtrack to Kubrick's Barry Lyndon.  It was an excerpt from his Barber of Seville opera (not Rossini's  ;) Kubrick Film soundtracks were my transition into classical music, and opened up that new world of intrigue to me!  0:)

Well, I know you are a chamber fan (like me!) but you would likely be interested in Paisiello's piano concerti. The #4 in g minor is particularly good (you can find it on a Naxos disk). Not all of the opera composers were good at purley instrumental music, but he was one who was. :)

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 11:07:29 AM »
Regarding the Mannheim style, I found an interesting quote from Mozart taken from a letter to his father. (I quote it from the first book I mentioned in my first post.)

You cannot imagine the glorious effect of a symphony with flutes, oboes and clarinets.

At a time when we take the things for granted, it's amazing to know that there was a period (when Mozart was still alive) when this was all new and revolutionary. I can't imagine listening to the late works of Mozart without some of these wonderful woodwinds.

Yes, Mozart was bowled over by the Mannheim band. It started a whole new line of thinking for him. Their particular idiom involved some novel ideas, like actually playing together... :)  But it's true, before them, an orchestra was primarily the string section that we would call it today. When Mozart returned from Paris, he lobbied the Archbishop long and hard for clarinets for the orchestra in Salzburg, but to no avail. He had to remove the clarinet parts from the Paris symphony, for example, and he (probably) never bothered to rewrite the Sinfonia Concertante for Winds to include a different solo part from the clarinet that it was written for in Paris. But he did continue to use some Mannheim standard devices, like the "Mannheim Rocket" which the French called the premiére coup d'archet. It shows up in several of his later works, and still pleases today. :)

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 11:09:05 AM »
In very curious to know, since I really enjoy Russian music, if there were any good Russian composers in the classical era (pre-Glinka)?

I don't know of any, but that means nothing. Russia imported their musicians from Italy, primarily. Paisiello and Cimarosa were two that spent time working for the Czar before lighting in Vienna. :)

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 11:15:07 AM »
Congratulations, Gurn, for a very interesting new topic!

Just because I am an opera fan and - I love Stockhausen! - doesn't exclude me from responding. In my opera collection is Pierre le Grand by André Ernest Modeste Grétry, an opera about Peter the Great I enjoy very much.




Thank you, Brünnhilde. I hope you will grace us with some more interesting information, since many of these composers were (or really wanted to be) opera composers too. My only knowledge of Gretry, for example, is that Mozart wrote 8 Variations in F (K 352/374c) on a theme from his "Les Mariages Samnites". Lots to learn. :)

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Offline Opus106

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2009, 11:16:01 AM »
[Mozart] (probably) never bothered to rewrite the Sinfonia Concertante for Winds to include a different solo part from the clarinet that it was written for in Paris.

I thought that work had the 'spurious' tag attached to it. So, has it been decided (proved?) that it's Mozart's?

Quote
But he did continue to use some Mannheim standard devices, like the "Mannheim Rocket" which the French called the premiére coup d'archet. It shows up in several of his later works, and still pleases today. :)8)

Yep. The only example I know of is from the third movement of K. 466. (And the other, non-Mozartian example is the opening of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 2.) I'd appreciate it if you can provide some other examples (Mozartian or otherwise). Thanks.
Regards,
Navneeth

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2009, 11:25:45 AM »
I thought that work had the 'spurious' tag attached to it. So, has it been decided (proved?) that it's Mozart's?

Oh, there's little doubt that Mozart wrote an original SC when he was in Paris. According to the latest Köchel "Composed probably between Apr 5 and 20, 1778 in Paris; Mozart wrote Sinfonia concertante for Fl, Ob, Hn Bn for LeGros; never performed, and LeGros kept autograph.". The version that we hear today is for Clarinet, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon, and that is the one that (at least parts of) are spurious. And one of the main arguments against it is that he wouldn't have rewritten it for a clarinet in Salzburg, since there weren't any clarinet players there... My personal opinion is that the full truth of the matter will never be known. :-\

Quote
Yep. The only example I know of is from the third movement of K. 466. (And the other, non-Mozartian example is the opening of Beethoven's Op. 2 No. 2.) I'd appreciate it if you can provide some other examples (Mozartian or otherwise). Thanks.

I can, with a little research to refresh my memory. I'm bad that way, and age hasn't helped. :) More later...

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Offline Anne

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 11:29:07 AM »
Hi Gurn, nice idea for a thread!  :)

I was given this book for my birthday last summer, and I think it's a pretty good book for relative newcomers to classical era music (but specifically on Mozart).

What to Listen For in Mozart - by Robert Harris
KammerNuss,

Thanks for sharing the name of that book.  It is EXACTLY the kind of book I always hope to find for each composer.  If you or anyone else know of any other books of this type, would you kindly share their titles?

Offline Opus106

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2009, 11:29:26 AM »
Oh, there's little doubt that Mozart wrote an original SC when he was in Paris. According to the latest Köchel "Composed probably between Apr 5 and 20, 1778 in Paris; Mozart wrote Sinfonia concertante for Fl, Ob, Hn Bn for LeGros; never performed, and LeGros kept autograph.". The version that we hear today is for Clarinet, Oboe, Horn and Bassoon, and that is the one that (at least parts of) are spurious. And one of the main arguments against it is that he wouldn't have rewritten it for a clarinet in Salzburg, since there weren't any clarinet players there... My personal opinion is that the full truth of the matter will never be known. :-\

I can, with a little research to refresh my memory. I'm bad that way, and age hasn't helped. :) More later...

8)

Not a problem, I can wait. :) And thanks for the clarification on the SC.
Regards,
Navneeth

Offline Herman

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2009, 11:45:29 AM »
At a time when we take the things for granted, it's amazing to know that there was a period (when Mozart was still alive) when this was all new and revolutionary. I can't imagine listening to the late works of Mozart without some of these wonderful woodwinds.

The flutes and oboes are always there AFAIK, but the concertos and symphonies with clarinets form a special subgroup in Mozarts later works.

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2009, 11:53:56 AM »
Not a problem, I can wait. :) And thanks for the clarification on the SC.

Here are 2 quick ones: The opening of the 4th movement of the g minor symphony (K 550) and the beginning of the orchestral exposition in the 3rd movement of the sinfonia concertante for violin & viola. In that one, it is not right at beginning of the movement, but occurs when the orchestra enters tutti after the viola and flute parts. Also when that section is reprised. :)

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2009, 11:56:48 AM »
The flutes and oboes are always there AFAIK, but the concertos and symphonies with clarinets form a special subgroup in Mozarts later works.

Yes, Mozart always used 2 flutes and/or 2 oboes in his earlier orchestral works. Also horns and bassoons. That's about it though. Note that he had 2 versions of several of his later symphonies, one with clarinets and one without. The Hogwood set has both versions. :)

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Offline Opus106

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2009, 11:58:21 AM »
Here are 2 quick ones: The opening of the 4th movement of the g minor symphony (K 550) and the beginning of the orchestral exposition in the 3rd movement of the sinfonia concertante for violin & viola. In that one, it is not right at beginning of the movement, but occurs when the orchestra enters tutti after the viola and flute parts. Also when that section is reprised. :)

8)

Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.

Yes, Mozart always used 2 flutes and/or 2 oboes in his earlier orchestral works. Also horns and bassoons. That's about it though. Note that he had 2 versions of several of his later symphonies, one with clarinets and one without. The Hogwood set has both versions. :)

8)

Ah, so that's why that set is so big! Also, I remember a radio announcer saying that the autograph(?) of one of the versions of the 40th (with or without clarinet, I don't remember) was owned by Brahms for sometime.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 12:01:23 PM by opus67 »
Regards,
Navneeth

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2009, 12:01:09 PM »
Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.

Ah, tomorrow's gonna be a good day, I can tell already :D

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2009, 12:03:17 PM »
Thanks! I'm including the SC in playlist for tomorrow.

Ah, so that's why that set is so big! Also, I remember a radio announcer saying that the autograph(?) of one of the versions of the 40th (with or without clarinet, I don't remember) was owned by Brahms for sometime.

I know that Brahms owned several Mozart autographs, I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of them. Brahms was an exceptional connoisseur of music as well as a great composer. :)

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Offline Herman

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2009, 12:12:54 PM »
Brahms owned the autograph of the g minor symphony for a while, indeed.

Brahms was very well to do towards the end of his life.

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2009, 12:15:03 PM »

karlhenning

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2009, 12:19:24 PM »
Cool thread, Gurn -- speaking from the 21st century though I does  8)

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