Author Topic: Gurn's Classical Corner  (Read 492553 times)

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Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2009, 05:27:02 AM »
And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.

Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!

Still talking to me?  ???




Well, it doesn't have to be called "Classical", that's what has been instituted over the years. As I mentioned in my first post, labels like that are merely a convenience for people who love to pigeonhole things.

For me, the entire period from the end of the Period of Polyphony (Baroque, if you will) to the beginning of the Period of Cacophony, in other words, the Period of Homophony, Melody and Tonality, constitutes a single age. If you were inclined to label it, and wanted to call it something that people could relate to, then "Classico-Romantic" would work. The musical style trends swing back and forth throughout the period, sometimes more light and elegant, sometimes more dense and textured, but always within certain boundaries, like tonality and homophony. :)

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Offline Est.1965

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2009, 05:49:50 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Brünnhilde forever on Today at 04:08:57
And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.

Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!

Still talking to me? 

I don't think there is such a thing as a real classical music lover who doesn't know his 'classical periods'.  They help objectify the World in which the composer moved, help define the influences around him, musical and otherwise, that affected his musical output.  Knowing things like what the Renaissance was, and who is credited with a move away from the Classical to the Romantic, etc subconsciously enrich ones listening experience and understanding of the piece as a whole.
People who listen to Classical music and say they like it without even trying to find out why are patter merchants.
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
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Offline Herman

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2009, 06:08:02 AM »
Gurn: Somebody has to congratulate you repeatedly to your super-successful new thread.

Congratulations, Gurn!  :-*

And somebody has to bust in and ask questions considered not only controversial, but also out of the ordinary, questions from a non-musician, a simple lover of good music.

Here we go: Why do you insist on creating a special class for compositions created at a certain period of time? Can't you just talk about music composed in such and such a year, why does it have to be called 'classical', 'baroque', 'renaissance', etc. I am sure there are music lovers who have no idea what years are covered by the 'classical' period, or renaissance, - maybe people who don't even know what 'renaissance' means, - but they sure love to listen to Marin Marais and his bells without a clue as to who composed it and what period he belongs to, according to you anyhow!

So, this was a very interesting topic, full of information, something reminding one of the time GMG spread its wings, and now we get this?

On whose behalf are you busting in? The "identify this song for me" people?

Oh, let's not even think about it, and please, Gurn et al, just continue as before!

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2009, 06:13:46 AM »
So a quick check of the available Krommer recordings shows there are 'partitas for winds'. Are these anywhere near the top of Krommer's output, so to speak?

Well, partitas are partitas. They are an evening's entertainment and make no pretense about being more than that. :)

So, that said, Krommer wrote a nice partita, as did Mozart, Rosetti, Danzi et al. As it happens, I do really like wind music, eapecially Harmonie octets and sextets. If you do too, Krommer should please you. But as Gabriel says, if you are looking for depth and intellectual stimulation, these aren't going to happen for you. :)

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Offline Opus106

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2009, 07:34:54 AM »
I think it was thanks to Harry that I came across this set, and it's been on my wish-list ever since.

Looking at the set, I was reminded of another composer whose music, when I first heard it, immediately reminded me of Mozart: Leopold Kozeluch. I have heard a couple of his symphonies, but nothing more. It appears that he was quite prolific and popular during his time.
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Navneeth

Offline Sorin Eushayson

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2009, 07:44:25 AM »
I came across a little curiosity in the Brilliant Classics Mozart Edition that I thought might interest you, Gurn.  It's a fragmented, three-movement suite for keyboard in C Major, K. 399; in the recording in the set it's performed on harpsichord.  I haven't really been able to find out much about the thing!  Know anything?  :)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 07:46:57 AM by Sorin Eushayson »

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2009, 08:21:34 AM »
I came across a little curiosity in the Brilliant Classics Mozart Edition that I thought might interest you, Gurn.  It's a fragmented, three-movement suite for keyboard in C Major, K. 399; in the recording in the set it's performed on harpsichord.  I haven't really been able to find out much about the thing!  Know anything?  :)

Just have a moment, so it'll have to be the short answer.

This piece is also called "Suite in the Style of Händel". It was composed in 1782, almost certainly at the request of Baron von Sweiten, who hosted Sunday afternoon study sessions of polyphonic music, and incidentally introduced Mozart to a lot of Bach and Händel. He was likely also responsible for those exercises, K 404a & 405 that incorporated Bach's fugues with Mozart's Preludes for them. :)

8)

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Offline Lethevich

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2009, 08:37:37 AM »
:D You're a walking (typing) encyclopaedia!
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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2009, 10:34:15 AM »
I don't understand what your gripe is? 


Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post?  :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.

 Thank you, Gurn  :-*

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2009, 10:39:29 AM »
Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post?  :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.

 Thank you, Gurn  :-*

Well, convoluted was the best I could manage, because it is not as simple a subject as we would all like it to be. :)  But the attempts to tie music stages in with those of the other arts has gone on for a very long time. I am not trying to perpetuate the practice when I do it too, I am only trying to communicate thoughts on a level that we have all agreed upon, however hesitantly. But I did tell you my true belief in my reply to you: I don't think there is such a thing as a true Classical Period, only a much larger period of tonal, homophonic (mainly) music which I prefer the term "Classico-Romantic". That in itself is a fairly radical concept, it seems... :D

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2009, 10:41:13 AM »
Who is griping? - Did you forget to add a smiley to your post?  :) - I asked for information on an open forum/thread, in a civilly tone, and I received an answer in a civilly tone; a bit convoluted, but helpful, maybe even to the unwashed masses who are not graduate musicians, yet simply enjoy listening to other music besides the pop variety.

I apologize then.  I misread the tone of your message and jumped to conclusions.  I deleted my post.  0:)

Brünnhilde forever

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #91 on: February 24, 2009, 10:50:34 AM »
Pace! Peace! Frieden!

 :-*
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 10:52:57 AM by Brünnhilde forever »

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2009, 02:52:14 PM »
Looking at the set, I was reminded of another composer whose music, when I first heard it, immediately reminded me of Mozart: Leopold Kozeluch. I have heard a couple of his symphonies, but nothing more. It appears that he was quite prolific and popular during his time.

Kozeluch wrote some very interesting works. I remember I bought one CD of his because I noticed it included a sinfonia concertante for mandolin, trumpet, piano, double-bass and orchestra. My immediate question was how could anyone manage to write coherently for so different instruments (I guess I don't know other concertante work in all classicism with such an extraordinary combination). I wondered about a possible solution most of all concerning the first movement, where a sonata/concerto form is supposed to happen. Kozeluch's solution was, to me, brilliant. He divided the instrumental forces in three: the orchestra (1); trumpet, mandolin and double-bass (2); and the piano (3). So, the first exposition - traditionally orchestral - was taken by the orchestra and the trumpet, mandolin and double-bass, while just in the second exposition - traditionally for the soloist(s) - the piano took the leading role. The further exchanges are all happy: Kozeluch keeps an impressive balance in a 15-minute movement, offering to the listener very happy ideas, all suitable to the nature of each of the participants (v. gr., martial calls from the trumpet, intimate passages from the mandolin). The exchanges increase as the end approaches, so a bit before the last cadential section there is a particularly enjoyable moment when the piano keeps a harmonical support for the dialogue of the other three soloists. The sound is typically classical, so it is not something that calls your attention at once; but when I realize the "effortless effort" that Kozeluch does with this formation, I cannot but admire such a natural effect. (That naturality, so appreciated during the classical era, is often disregarded in our days... unfortunately).

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #93 on: February 24, 2009, 06:22:35 PM »
Kozeluch was actually best known as a piano virtuoso and composer of sonatas. Everything else he did was an adjunct to that. In addition to his symphonies on Chandos, and the odd clarinet concerto here and there, I have one disk of his works by Christine Faron on fortepiano, and they are really quite nice.

"The periodical "Pfeffer und Salz" from April 5, 1786 reported, "It is no secret that Herr Leopold Kozeluch competes with Mozart. His art on the pianoforte is not to be judged, for he is perhaps the only virtuoso in Vienna who never plays in public. His compositions, on the other hand, bespeak an excellent mind, and no other fault is to be found with them than they are too difficult….In general, there are amateur ladies here who play such concertos as they have learnt almost as well as Mozart himself."

And he is also the composer who made this famous statement at Mozart's death: 'Of course it's too bad about such a great genius, but it's good for us that he's dead. Because if he had lived longer, really the world would not have given a single piece of bread for our compositions.'

I can recommend Kozeluch's music at the very least in that everything I have heard from him has been above average. And the average in those times was quite good. :)

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Offline Bogey

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #94 on: February 24, 2009, 08:24:42 PM »
Well, partitas are partitas. They are an evening's entertainment and make no pretense about being more than that. :)

So, that said, Krommer wrote a nice partita.... :)

8)

So much so that one may even mistake the work for Haydn. ;D

As it happens, I do really like wind music....

Too often overlooked.  (David (Ross) pointed this out many moons ago.)
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Offline Gabriel

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #95 on: February 25, 2009, 02:43:28 AM »
I think it was thanks to Harry that I came across this set, and it's been on my wish-list ever since.

And you have in that set the excellent Eberl symphonies op. 33 and 34, which were ranked beside Beethoven's in their time (around 1805). They are quite extraordinary works, and - within the works I have listened to - probably the most important in their genre composed in Austria and Germany during the first decade of the nineteenth century (naturally, with Beethoven's). It is really a loss for music that Eberl died in 1807 (41 years old): his chamber music is equally attractive. A very solid composer.

Offline Sorin Eushayson

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #96 on: February 25, 2009, 05:16:36 AM »
Just have a moment, so it'll have to be the short answer.

This piece is also called "Suite in the Style of Händel". It was composed in 1782, almost certainly at the request of Baron von Sweiten, who hosted Sunday afternoon study sessions of polyphonic music, and incidentally introduced Mozart to a lot of Bach and Händel. He was likely also responsible for those exercises, K 404a & 405 that incorporated Bach's fugues with Mozart's Preludes for them. :)


You're a legend, Gurn! 

I suspected it was some sort of reflection of his Baroque studies, especially given the Kochel number, which places it around that time.  I think the piece is quite clever; it's interesting hearing Mozart on harpsichord.  Those Prelude & Fugue arrangements are quite skillfully done as well.

Thanks for the info!  ;)

Offline Gurn Blanston

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #97 on: February 25, 2009, 05:26:44 AM »


You're a legend, Gurn! 

I suspected it was some sort of reflection of his Baroque studies, especially given the Kochel number, which places it around that time.  I think the piece is quite clever; it's interesting hearing Mozart on harpsichord.  Those Prelude & Fugue arrangements are quite skillfully done as well.

Thanks for the info!  ;)

You're welcome. I got lucky, you asked the one question that I knew the answer...  :-[  :)

Actually, in addition to that work, probably everything from before 1775 should be done on a harpsichord. I just don't like it quite as much. Harpsichords are excellent for Baroque music (which is why this sounds so nice), but in homophonic music, it just doesn't satisfy nearly so much. :)

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Offline Opus106

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #98 on: February 25, 2009, 07:09:43 AM »
Thank you, Gabriel and Gurn, for the information on Kozeluch.

Kozeluch wrote some very interesting works. I remember I bought one CD of his because I noticed it included a sinfonia concertante for mandolin, trumpet, piano, double-bass and orchestra. My immediate question was how could anyone manage to write coherently for so different instruments (I guess I don't know other concertante work in all classicism with such an extraordinary combination). I wondered about a possible solution most of all concerning the first movement, where a sonata/concerto form is supposed to happen. Kozeluch's solution was, to me, brilliant. He divided the instrumental forces in three: the orchestra (1); trumpet, mandolin and double-bass (2); and the piano (3). So, the first exposition - traditionally orchestral - was taken by the orchestra and the trumpet, mandolin and double-bass, while just in the second exposition - traditionally for the soloist(s) - the piano took the leading role. The further exchanges are all happy: Kozeluch keeps an impressive balance in a 15-minute movement, offering to the listener very happy ideas, all suitable to the nature of each of the participants (v. gr., martial calls from the trumpet, intimate passages from the mandolin). The exchanges increase as the end approaches, so a bit before the last cadential section there is a particularly enjoyable moment when the piano keeps a harmonical support for the dialogue of the other three soloists. The sound is typically classical, so it is not something that calls your attention at once; but when I realize the "effortless effort" that Kozeluch does with this formation, I cannot but admire such a natural effect. (That naturality, so appreciated during the classical era, is often disregarded in our days... unfortunately).

Now that you have mentioned it (the SC), I checked the other things I have posted about Kozeluch elsewhere in the web. As it turns out, the first time I came across this composer was through a sinfonia concertante of his. And I think it could have been the one the four instruments you describe. (I have mentioned this set while talking about the "discovery.") Now I'm eager to listen to it all over again.

And I'll look into Eberl, too. :)
Regards,
Navneeth

Offline Gabriel

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Re: Gurn's Classical Corner
« Reply #99 on: February 25, 2009, 09:12:10 AM »
As it turns out, the first time I came across this composer was through a sinfonia concertante of his. And I think it could have been the one the four instruments you describe. (I have mentioned this set while talking about the "discovery.") Now I'm eager to listen to it all over again.

I checked the recording. It is not the one I own, but it should be the same work I was talking about (I would be really surprised if Kozeluch had written two sinfonie concertanti for the same instruments!).