Author Topic: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)  (Read 21834 times)

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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2013, 10:26:38 PM »
Bruckner is.   :laugh: 
Hans Rott wrote the Symphony that had the biggest effect on me.
Atterberg is one of my favourite composers, because his music is so photogenically and cinematically entertaining.
Rangstrom too.  And Berg.  I love all the Swedish stuff so much.  There is no logic for it.  I need help.   :P



But Bruckner is the composer you put above all others, right?
"Music must be beautiful, or it wouldn’t be worth the effort” - Bohuslav Martinů

Offline Est.1965

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2013, 10:33:15 PM »
Yes.
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
Kind regards, John

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2013, 10:43:40 PM »
Yes.

This is good to know, John. Now I know who your absolute favorite composer is. No matter how excited you get about this or that composer, Bruckner is your numero uno. I feel the same way about Delius. Surprise, surprise...::) :laugh:
"Music must be beautiful, or it wouldn’t be worth the effort” - Bohuslav Martinů

Offline Est.1965

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2013, 10:54:31 PM »
...No matter how excited you get about this or that composer, Bruckner is your numero uno. I feel the same way about Delius. Surprise, surprise...::) :laugh:

That is 100% correct.  Bruckner is my Dad, even though his First Symphony is a bit wonky.   :P
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
Kind regards, John

Offline The new erato

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2013, 02:43:48 AM »
To become a Dad in the first place, you have to start with some wonky.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:00:25 AM by The new erato »

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2013, 08:14:19 AM »
That is 100% correct.  Bruckner is my Dad, even though his First Symphony is a bit wonky.   :P

 :P
"Music must be beautiful, or it wouldn’t be worth the effort” - Bohuslav Martinů

Offline vandermolen

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2013, 03:07:42 PM »
Listening today to symphonies 5,7 and 8 - all good. The discovery for me is Symphony No 5 with its hauntingly doom-laden slow movement, which I loved.  The eloquent slow movement of No 8 is wonderful.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Est.1965

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2013, 10:39:10 AM »
 >:(
On Kurt Atterberg, from the Oxford Grove Music Encyclopedia:

"...His nine orchestral suites are colorful and often folkloristic; his nine numbered symphonies are more serious, though not showing Atterberg to best advantage as a melodist. ~ James Reel, Rovi"

I thought Grove could be trusted to be accurate.  "...not showing Atterberg to best advantage as a melodist..."
That is the most wrong and absurd thing that could be said about Atterberg.  It is because of his turn for melody that I rate him so highly.  James Reel needs his ears cut off, because they are clearly clouding his judgement - if he is capable of such a thing.   >:(  I could not believe what I was reading when I came across that, and am unlikely to take anything Oxford Grove says seriousy again.   >:(
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
Kind regards, John

Offline soundwave106

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2013, 06:42:57 PM »
That is the most wrong and absurd thing that could be said about Atterberg.  It is because of his turn for melody that I rate him so highly.  James Reel needs his ears cut off, because they are clearly clouding his judgement - if he is capable of such a thing.   >:(  I could not believe what I was reading when I came across that, and am unlikely to take anything Oxford Grove says seriousy again.   >:(

I've noticed that AMG / ROVI reviews, on occasion, have occasionally produced unjustifiably hostile reviews with lesser known tuneful post-Romantic composers. (So you occasionally get strange scathing reviews of tuneful lesser known items from, say, Cyril Scott or Arnold Bax, within their database.) Sometimes there is a general classical critic trend to overly sniffs at gushy tuneful romantic idioms of the past, as if being gushy and tuneful were mortal sins. Lesser known classical or baroque era composers don't get as much of the sharp tongue in AMG / ROVI, for whatever reason.

It's true that tunefulness, along with orchestration, is probably the most attractive element of Atterberg's works, but since I don't trust their reviews very much for all but the top tier of the early 1900s era, I paid little attention to this bizarre statement.

Offline Est.1965

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2013, 04:11:17 AM »
I've noticed that AMG / ROVI reviews, on occasion, have occasionally produced unjustifiably hostile reviews with lesser known tuneful post-Romantic composers. (So you occasionally get strange scathing reviews of tuneful lesser known items from, say, Cyril Scott or Arnold Bax, within their database.) Sometimes there is a general classical critic trend to overly sniffs at gushy tuneful romantic idioms of the past, as if being gushy and tuneful were mortal sins. Lesser known classical or baroque era composers don't get as much of the sharp tongue in AMG / ROVI, for whatever reason.

It's true that tunefulness, along with orchestration, is probably the most attractive element of Atterberg's works, but since I don't trust their reviews very much for all but the top tier of the early 1900s era, I paid little attention to this bizarre statement.

Thanks for that Soundwave, it is great when someone knows a wee bit more about things which in turn helps galvanise what I already think.  Welcome to GMG by the way, hope you have a long and prosperous voyage stay with this Forum.
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
Kind regards, John

Offline PaulR

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2013, 07:53:17 AM »
>:(
On Kurt Atterberg, from the Oxford Grove Music Encyclopedia:

"...His nine orchestral suites are colorful and often folkloristic; his nine numbered symphonies are more serious, though not showing Atterberg to best advantage as a melodist. ~ James Reel, Rovi"

I thought Grove could be trusted to be accurate.  "...not showing Atterberg to best advantage as a melodist..."
That is the most wrong and absurd thing that could be said about Atterberg.  It is because of his turn for melody that I rate him so highly.  James Reel needs his ears cut off, because they are clearly clouding his judgement - if he is capable of such a thing.   >:(  I could not believe what I was reading when I came across that, and am unlikely to take anything Oxford Grove says seriousy again.   >:(
Grove can be trusted, but like everything else, nothing can be perfect.  Some articles on Grove are better than others, and some are worse.  It is also a judgement thing to a degree, who they get to write the article on a certain topic/composer can judge it for himself.

Though, I did not read that he said that Atterberg was a bad as a melodist, but rather, the genre of the symphony did not allow him to use his talent to his fullest potential.

(Was that from their online resource, or a text?)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 07:59:14 AM by PaulR »

Offline PaulR

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2013, 08:07:58 AM »
I wouldn't worry a whole lot about that write-up, John, it's just one man's opinion. Trust me, as much hatred some have for all things Delius, I understand your sentiment, but those that don't get the composer I simply tell them it's their loss. Delius has a ton of recordings to his credit, and while this may not mean a whole lot, it does mean that his music still means something to someone or else it wouldn't continue to get performed. My suggestion thumb your nose up at the fool and walk away.
I don't think what the guy said (and if he's in grove, he's certainly no fool), was all that negative...He wasn't saying Atterberg was a poor melodist, but the symphony wasn't the best genre to show his talents as a melodist.

Offline Brian

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2013, 08:31:01 AM »
Everyone is a critic. You, me, John, we all are, but, at the end of the day, we still have our favorite composers regardless of what people say.
Ironically, Atterberg also spent most of his career writing music criticism, as I recall.

I think there are cases in the symphonies where Atterberg really "lets go" and composes extraordinary melodies - the slow movement to the Eighth, but above all the finale of the Third. There are also places where he takes pretty good tunes and makes them more serious, even savage.

Offline PaulR

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2013, 10:50:24 AM »
Doesn't matter if was or wasn't negative to either of us, it was negative to John and I simply told him to ignore the fool.
Again, you can't assume he's a fool because he has a differing opinion that you.  It is wise to question an assumption or a claim by someone, but it is foolish just to suggest to him to blindly ignore him.  It serves no purpose rather than ignoring any differing opinions that if challenged might make you enjoy the music better or understand it better.  It may be viewed as "negative" to John, but it is not a good solution to just ignore the criticism/a resource.

In my view, it is a valid criticism of Atterberg's Symphonies.  Don't get me wrong, he writes some beautiful melodies in all of his symphonies (for me, I love the 5th in D minor), but a symphony is more than having beautiful melodies.  Where he was inconsistent on was the transitions between the melodies, while may not be as important as memorable themes, is still important to the structure of the symphony.  This is where I think his gifts of melody isn't used to the best advantage in the symphony.
Everyone is a critic. You, me, John, we all are, but, at the end of the day, we still have our favorite composers regardless of what people say.
Irrelevant "fact".  We all have our favorite composers, our favorite pieces, but if we close our ears to any criticism (even as benign as this one) we aren't enjoying the music as much as we could.  There is no purpose in only hearing the good while ignoring the criticism. 

Offline PaulR

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2013, 11:35:58 AM »
All of this is just your opinion, Paul. When a composer I enjoy is being maligned for something I disagree with, I do ignore it and usually just laugh. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. I'm certainly entitled to call the guy a fool as much as I want and when I want. It sounds like to me you're putting this Oxford Grove Music Encyclopedia up on some kind of pedestal. It's not like the critique about Atterberg was written by someone who actually knew him, but, rather, it's written by an everyday joe like you and me.
If you're talking about wikipedia, then sure, you can dismiss him/her as "an everyday joe".  Articles on Grove/oxford are generally written by people with training in the field, so yes, I do place more weight on their opinions than others.  That is not to say that Oxford is perfect, but it's foolish to dismiss a writer as a "fool" because you disagree with a criticism.  The writer may or may not be a fool, but you cannot judge him to be a fool for this criticism. 

I'm not defending him, as I don't really know who he is and I checked the oxford online and that statement wasn't even there and with different writers.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 11:39:05 AM by PaulR »

Offline Est.1965

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2013, 02:14:21 PM »
 :o

Oh dear.  I found that quotation at Answers dot com, and it was referenced as coming from the Oxford Grove Music Encyclopedia.  It wasn't the answer I was looking for.  :P

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Paul:  The writer may or may not be a fool, but you cannot judge him to be a fool for this criticism.

Unfortunately, I am doing just that, I judge him to have made a foolish assessment of Atterbergs symphonies.  However, I accept that I may have some shortcomings in my interpretation of the quote because as you say (Paul)...

Quote
He wasn't saying Atterberg was a poor melodist, but the symphony wasn't the best genre to show his talents as a melodist.

The quote as I found it was left hanging on a negative point, which infuriated me,  >:( but absoloutely I see your point with your above statement.  :)

Quote
In my view, it is a valid criticism of Atterberg's Symphonies.  Don't get me wrong, he writes some beautiful melodies in all of his symphonies (for me, I love the 5th in D minor), but a symphony is more than having beautiful melodies.  Where he was inconsistent on was the transitions between the melodies, while may not be as important as memorable themes, is still important to the structure of the symphony.


That is an entirely different argument from " the symphony wasn't the best genre to show his talents as a melodist."  Thankfully, I am interested in how the music affects me, and not it's possible structural deficiencies.  This is the case with any music I listen to.  I know for example that Hans Rotts only symphony can be said to be somewhat less than we might expect from a full blown symphonist because it is found to be 'not quite hitting the mark'.  But to me it is music that affects me greatly, regardless of where it may fall for the better learned in music.  Another example, something which I know a bit more about, Screenplays.  Ten minuites into a modern Hollywood film of 90-120 mins,  I can usually tell what will happen in the seventeenth minuite, what will happen in about half an hour or so, etc...this is because I know the 'structure' the majority of these things follow.  Unfortunately, when I was learning the craft of screenwriting, it completely spoiled my enjoyment of many movies because I could see what was coming, and consequently many perfectly good movies fell victim to my criticism of their structural deficiencies, and I forgot that actually, there was a very good story behind them.  This is why I approach music by listening for the music and not the structure, sonata forms, etc...sure I know standard musical structures, symphonies, movements, etc, but not to great extent.  If I could be as loosley ignorant about the structure of films, their lengths, their plot points, their turnarounds, etc, etc, I would probably enjoy them again as much as I do music.

I guess what I am saying Paul is I'm happy to be blissfully unaware of the problems which properly trained and insightful musicians like yourself can see are glaring!  :(

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Mirror Image:  There's so much negativity surrounding classical music as whether or not this or that person didn't like the music or whatever, I think energy is better spent talking about the good in music rather than the negative.

Right on!   ;D
Dear Hans Rott
In the 1980s there was a creative punk group called "Big Audio Dynamite".  I have decided to apply the term to you, my man.  And I still haven't properly finished your Screenplay yet.  Too bad.  Take care anyway old chum, I'm off to listen to Brahms!
Kind regards, John

Offline PaulR

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2013, 02:35:53 PM »
The quote you found was from "Allmusicguide", not oxford/grove, btw.

Quote
Unfortunately, I am doing just that, I judge him to have made a foolish assessment of Atterbergs symphonies.  However, I accept that I may have some shortcomings in my interpretation of the quote because as you say (Paul)...

Might sound contradictory, but that is somewhat different than just calling him a fool.  It shows that you thought about it to some degree.

Quote
I guess what I am saying Paul is I'm happy to be blissfully unaware of the problems which properly trained and insightful musicians like yourself can see are glaring!  :(
Sometimes ignorance is bliss :P

Unlike Grove, I think you can dismiss "All music guide" relatively easily.  The reason I value the articles in Grove over the random people is that they provide (at least in the good articles) both bibliographies of where their information came from (claim supported by fact) and at times external links.   All Music Guide doesn't.

Offline PaulR

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2013, 02:55:32 PM »
And what you don't get is I never denied everyone has an opinion.  I just stated the reasons why I value Grove articles.

Offline Brian

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2013, 03:10:28 PM »
Getting back to Atterberg and the GOOD IN MUSIC, what does everyone think about his concerti? John, any thoughts?

The violin concerto is a little bit long, but full of catchy tunes and good solos, especially the cadenza. It was the focus of a lot of attention on old GMG when user Manuel posted an unlabeled clip, saying that he'd found it on his hard drive and didn't know what it is. I think I spent about a week listening to every romantic violin concerto on Naxos Music Library before IDing it as Atterberg's.

The cello concerto I've heard a couple times and not returned to; the piano concerto I don't yet know.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Kurt Atterberg (1887-1974)
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2013, 03:16:19 PM »
The violin concerto is a little bit long, but full of catchy tunes and good solos, especially the cadenza. It was the focus of a lot of attention on old GMG when user Manuel posted an unlabeled clip, saying that he'd found it on his hard drive and didn't know what it is. I think I spent about a week listening to every romantic violin concerto on Naxos Music Library before IDing it as Atterberg's.

The cello concerto I've heard a couple times and not returned to; the piano concerto I don't yet know.

Must have not been too distinctive of a Violin Concerto. ;)
"Music must be beautiful, or it wouldn’t be worth the effort” - Bohuslav Martinů

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