Author Topic: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)  (Read 212223 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1620 on: May 16, 2017, 12:09:14 PM »
Thanks. The separate volume 3 might be an option.


You're welcome. Be advised, though, that volume 3 has five discs.  :laugh:
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Offline rfeo

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1621 on: May 16, 2017, 02:15:38 PM »
I know. I did look up the contents before saying that.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1622 on: May 24, 2017, 04:27:53 AM »
Apropos of orfeo's question: RIGHT NOW Naxos is recording Leif Segerstam and the Turku Philharmonic for a new series of Beethoven's complete incidental music and other rare odds and ends.
https://www.naxos.com/news/default.asp?op=1368&displayMenu=Naxos_News&type=2

Offline rfeo

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1623 on: May 24, 2017, 04:58:00 AM »
Ooooohhhhhh.

Thank you for the heads up.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1624 on: May 24, 2017, 05:00:38 AM »
Nice.
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Offline α |

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1625 on: June 18, 2017, 01:28:20 AM »
Not a Beethoven "fan" by a long shot but I admit I have warmed up to him more over the years.

Anyway, I'm calling it:

The piano sonatas are ten times better than the symphonies, so are the Late Quartets. Beethoven's music is most effective (to me at least) on a small scale (and preferably in a minor key  :P )

So in other words, the more intimate the better  ;)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 01:30:23 AM by α | »
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1626 on: June 18, 2017, 08:40:26 AM »
the more intimate the better  ;)

Agreed , and not only with respect to Beethoven. Generally speaking and obvious exceptions aside, for any given composer active from 1800 onward I find the chamber music (solo piano included) to be more compelling and attractive than the orchestral / symphonic one. (An unpopular opinion, maybe?)
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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1627 on: June 18, 2017, 09:13:33 AM »
Agreed , and not only with respect to Beethoven. Generally speaking and obvious exceptions aside, for any given composer active from 1800 onward I find the chamber music (solo piano included) to be more compelling and attractive than the orchestral / symphonic one. (An unpopular opinion, maybe?)
Unpopular with me, that's for sure.... 8) Nothing greater and more compelling than the Seventh Symphony (just to stick to Beethoven), or, moving further ahead, any of the mature Wagner operas, the late Bruckner symphonies, etc., etc.

But...we can still be friends.  ;)



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Offline α |

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1628 on: June 18, 2017, 09:22:26 AM »
Agreed , and not only with respect to Beethoven. Generally speaking and obvious exceptions aside, for any given composer active from 1800 onward I find the chamber music (solo piano included) to be more compelling and attractive than the orchestral / symphonic one. (An unpopular opinion, maybe?)

Unpopular? I think that's a good point (or at least view). I tend to agree quite a bit there. From Medieval to early romantic, the best or most compelling music is "chamber music" IMO. Whether it's vocal music, Bach fugues, Piano sonatas, String quartets, piano quintets etc. The mid romantic era just stepped the game up so far expression-wise. There is a certain strength that smaller (instrument) numbers has on those eras  :)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1629 on: June 18, 2017, 09:35:49 AM »
Nothing greater and more compelling than the Seventh Symphony (just to stick to Beethoven),

Nothing indeed, except... Archduke Trio, Kreutzer Sonata, a handful of Piano Sonatas and Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9.  ;D

EDIT: and Piano Concertos 2, 4, 5... and the Violin Concerto... and the Triple Concerto...

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or, moving further ahead, any of the mature Wagner operas, the late Bruckner symphonies, etc., etc.

They belong to "obvious exceptions" --- and anyway they are far from being on my list of top 50 favorite composers .  ;D

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But...we can still be friends.  ;)

Absolutely.  8)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 09:41:31 AM by Florestan »
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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1630 on: June 18, 2017, 09:53:08 AM »
Nothing indeed, except... Archduke Trio, Kreutzer Sonata, a handful of Piano Sonatas and Symphonies 4, 6, 8, 9.  ;D

EDIT: and Piano Concertos 2, 4, 5... and the Violin Concerto... and the Triple Concerto...

Curious to see 9 symphonic works by LvB used as examples of how more complleing and attractive  his chamber music is vis--vis orchestral oeuvre... :)

Absolutely.  8)
All's good, then... 8)
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1631 on: June 18, 2017, 10:25:25 AM »
Unpopular? I think that's a good point (or at least view). I tend to agree quite a bit there. From Medieval to early romantic, the best or most compelling music is "chamber music" IMO. Whether it's vocal music, Bach fugues, Piano sonatas, String quartets, piano quintets etc. The mid romantic era just stepped the game up so far expression-wise. There is a certain strength that smaller (instrument) numbers has on those eras  :)

The interesting thing for me is whether you think the same thing applies in the C20, that modern chamber music is more compelling than music for big loud forces. And if not, what's made the difference.

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1632 on: June 18, 2017, 10:35:21 AM »
The interesting thing for me is whether you think the same thing applies in the C20, that modern chamber music is more compelling than music for big loud forces. And if not, what's made the difference.


Moreso the orchestration is more colorful and contains more 'force' (well depending on the composer obviously). Essentially though (composers) coming to fully realize what can be done with you know, 60, 70, 80 people? In a lot of ways, many of these works are hard to reduce to a piano because they're so filled with information/material. The chamber music, on the other hand is even more vibrant and concentrated, I love both very much. I guess composers started to think more economically with the players they are writing for, in a 'head-count' sense. (aka, less doubling of parts etc.)

But it's not about large vs small per se, more or less that (for me at least) the earlier centuries are more effective when it comes to chamber music, compared to orchestral (or large ensemble). There are always exceptions but you catch my drift, nay?  ;)
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Offline α |

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1633 on: June 18, 2017, 10:38:19 AM »
But again, there's something about the intimacy in Beethoven's chamber music, that I quite like a lot. His signature forcefulness contrasted with lyricism feels more 'closer' and less distant (I guess, if it makes sense)  :)
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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1634 on: June 18, 2017, 11:03:45 AM »
But again, there's something about the intimacy in Beethoven's chamber music, that I quite like a lot. His signature forcefulness contrasted with lyricism feels more 'closer' and less distant (I guess, if it makes sense)  :)

These qualities show up everywhere in Beethoven...that's what makes him so popular. He performs (so to speak) on many levels. There's intimacy, humor, resourcefulness, unpredictability, light-heartedness, grandeur, imagination...etc, etc, etc...in pretty much every composition, large-forces or small. At least that's what I hear.

So you may be "calling it" but I call it differently. 8)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1635 on: June 18, 2017, 11:17:30 AM »
Curious to see 9 symphonic works by LvB used as examples of how more complleing and attractive  his chamber music is vis--vis orchestral oeuvre... :)

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All's good, then... 8)

Never been otherwise, afaIc.   8)



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Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1636 on: June 18, 2017, 11:27:02 AM »
The piano sonatas are ten times better than the symphonies, so are the Late Quartets.
Based on your other posted listening, I would have thought you would be receptive to the later sonatas anyway. They have a lot of the essence of the music you like (and are key works along the way).
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1637 on: June 18, 2017, 12:24:16 PM »
With most really great composers I find very little difference in quality between their major genres. Beethoven's symphonies are as good as his piano solo and chamber music, same with Haydn and Mozart. Only in the case of Mozart there are comparably few mature symphonies but the last four are as good as his best quartets (and better than his piano solo, I'd say). With Schubert the balance is tilted but the main/only reason is that there is only one completed mature symphony compared to quite a few piano and chamber works of the highest rank.

If one brings vocal music into the mix one might come so somewhat different conclusions but again, I'd say that Beethoven's best vocal music (Missa solemnis and Fidelio) is about as good as it gets, certainly not clearly inferior to his instrumental music but of course there is not so much of it. And the Lieder of which there are many are not quite as good as most of his instrumental stuff but they are overall underrated and some astonishingly good and many charming pieces. (The most perfunctory music by Beethoven I find in some lesser orchestral, chamber, and piano works, like some of the incidental music, early piano variations or woodwind chamber music.)

With Mendelssohn and Schumann I would agree that overall symphonies are maybe not their very best pieces although each wrote at least one symphony that would be a candidate for ranking equal with their best chamber or piano solo (Schumann) music.

So altogether, I disagree with the claim. It holds for some composers to a certain extent but not in general and not for Beethoven.
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Offline PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1638 on: June 18, 2017, 12:54:54 PM »


The piano sonatas are ten times better than the symphonies, so are the Late Quartets.
Only ten times?

Offline rfeo

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1639 on: June 26, 2017, 12:41:36 PM »
Meh. People respond to different kinds of things. I absolutely adore chamber music, but I'm well aware that there are many people who prefer orchestral works.

And when it comes to Beethoven there are pretty fine things in any genre.
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