Author Topic: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)  (Read 220086 times)

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Offline Alberich

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1660 on: August 02, 2017, 08:51:25 AM »
I love both Beethoven and Brahms, but still don't care for Saint-Saens.  His music is only mildly interesting to me.

From those three I think I like Brahms the least (although I still do like his music).
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Offline Maestro267

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1661 on: August 28, 2017, 03:44:12 AM »
I'm not a big fan of the gradual creeping-in of HIPP elements into modern Beethoven performances, like the tendency to play everything at lightning speed, those timpani and natural trumpets etc. HIPP is an interesting "side-project", but it should be no more than that. The performance of music, and the instruments, should (and for the most part have) move(d) and evolve with the time. HIPP is turning Beethoven's music into an artefact of ancient times, rather than something still relevant today.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1662 on: August 28, 2017, 03:51:57 AM »
I agree that HIPP is a valid approach, rather than that to which all must now hew.

But I actually think that one result of the HIPP movement is, in fact, a renewed relevance . . . I do not take it as a relegation to the Sonic Museum.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1663 on: August 28, 2017, 03:53:57 AM »
And anyway, second-tier orchestras (and—let’s be honest—many of the first tier, too) will continue their practice of scheduling an obligatory quota of Beethoven every year.  There is no danger of LvB being consigned to oblivion.
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Offline North Star

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1664 on: August 28, 2017, 03:58:08 AM »
It's not as if HIPP is not a thoroughly contemporary phenomenon, with strong links to contemporary music. A symphony orchestra playing Beethoven as though it was Strauss is an artifact of ancient times. Not that there isn't a place for artifacts.
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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1665 on: August 28, 2017, 05:17:26 AM »
The performance of music, and the instruments, should (and for the most part have) move(d) and evolve with the time.

And yet people still seem to think we ought to stick to the notes that Beethoven wrote, as if that was the most important bit of the music over and above the tempo and the instrumentation?

My own view is that pitch gets prioritised simply because that is the aspect of music for which a more precise form of notation has been found.
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Offline amw

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1666 on: August 28, 2017, 06:45:46 AM »
I'm not a big fan of the gradual creeping-in of HIPP elements into modern Beethoven performances, like the tendency to play everything at lightning speed, those timpani and natural trumpets etc.
Those are the speeds Beethoven wanted and indicated in his scores (in fact they are often slower than the speeds Beethoven indicated), and the way he expected timpani to be played, etc. If you take issue with aspects of Beethoven's writing to such an extent, maybe his music is not for you.

Offline Scarpia

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1667 on: September 07, 2017, 10:30:12 AM »
I'm not a big fan of the gradual creeping-in of HIPP elements into modern Beethoven performances, like the tendency to play everything at lightning speed, those timpani and natural trumpets etc. HIPP is an interesting "side-project", but it should be no more than that. The performance of music, and the instruments, should (and for the most part have) move(d) and evolve with the time. HIPP is turning Beethoven's music into an artefact of ancient times, rather than something still relevant today.

In other words, you don't like HIP.

HIP is a modern phenomenon, involving both scholarship and experimentation, searching for a truer understanding of the intentions of composers from past eras. The fact that HIP elements have been "creeping in" to Beethoven performance reflects the fact that it is a force revitalizing Beethoven performance. Freezing in 19th century or 20th century performance practice of Beethoven is what threatens to transform the music into an "artifact," in my view.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 10:40:54 AM by Scarpia »

Offline Scarpia

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1668 on: September 07, 2017, 10:39:32 AM »
Listened to Beethoven's String Quartet Op 130, for the first time after a while.

I remember that in the past I felt I had to approach it with a certain amount of awe, suitable to its status as a deep and profound work. This time, it strikes me as a sort of serenade, with a breezy structure and profundity running as an undercurrent deep below the surface.

I listened to two versions, the rarely mentioned Cleveland Quartet (Telarc) and the Quartetto Italiano (Philips). Both were splendid in their way. The only clear difference was in the movement which is one of my favorites in all of Beethoven, the "Alla danza tedesca."

The Quartetto Italiano more strictly follows the tempo marking "Allegro assai," but I think the result is a feeling that the music is rushed. The Cleveland plays with a much more expansive tempo and the syncopations and dynamics of the music unfolds more naturally. The Cleveland also takes the finale (the final finale, not the Grosse Fuge) more slowly, which I found less successful.

Offline Brian

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1669 on: September 11, 2017, 08:50:57 AM »
cross-post from new releases

-

ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

IT'S HAPPENING  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)





EDIT
timings

CD1
Op. 127
6:59
12:58
8:57
6:30

Op. 131
6:09
3:09
0:41
13:05
5:34
1:40
6:51

CD2
Op. 130
14:32
2:03
7:38
3:05
6:09
Grosse Fuge 15:56

CD3
Op. 132
9:47
8:45
15:07
2:08
7:06

Op. 135
7:04
3:39
7:01
6:35
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 08:56:16 AM by Brian »

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1670 on: September 11, 2017, 10:50:01 AM »
Excellent! I heard some of that Beethoven, presumably, live... and was quite enthused. And I'd been hoping they'd continue their cycle... on another label if necessary. That it will work out on naive all the better.

Offline Scarpia

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1671 on: September 11, 2017, 11:00:00 AM »
cross-post from new releases

-

ALERT ALERT ALERT ALERT

THIS IS NOT A DRILL

IT'S HAPPENING  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)


CD2
Op. 130
14:32
2:03
7:38
3:05
6:09
Grosse Fuge 15:56

Something is wrong. There is a movement missing. Did they refuse to record Beethoven's finale for Op 130? And the "Alla danza tedesca" is 3:05? My favorite versions are 3:30 and 3:45. That is crazy fast.

Offline Brian

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1672 on: September 11, 2017, 11:02:35 AM »
Something is wrong. There is a movement missing. Did they refuse to record Beethoven's finale for Op 130? And the "Alla danza tedesca" is 3:05? My favorite versions are 3:30 and 3:45. That is crazy fast.
They did not record the replacement finale. The cavatina is 6:09 and the Grosse Fuge "is" the finale. There is a rationale in the booklet about preserving Beethoven's original thoughts, but with this ensemble, I think the more music they record the better!

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1673 on: September 11, 2017, 11:02:57 AM »
That is crazy fast.

There like a PI HIP Juilliard
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Offline Brian

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1674 on: September 11, 2017, 11:05:48 AM »
There like a PI HIP Juilliard
Ha, the Juilliard Sony performance of that movement is 3:00.

Offline Scarpia

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1675 on: September 11, 2017, 11:17:41 AM »
They did not record the replacement finale. The cavatina is 6:09 and the Grosse Fuge "is" the finale. There is a rationale in the booklet about preserving Beethoven's original thoughts, but with this ensemble, I think the more music they record the better!

That is ridiculous. Beethoven was perfectly capable of telling a publisher "that's the way I wrote it, if you don't like it I'll take it somewhere else." He must have seen some merit to the Grosse Fuge standing on its own as an independent piece. Besides, the replacement finale is a wonderful piece, whether or not you prefer to hear it as the finale of Op 130. They should have preserved the tradition of putting both finales on the disc so the listener can program it either way.

This is a set I will pass up without reservation.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 11:23:55 AM by Scarpia »

Offline Brian

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1676 on: September 11, 2017, 11:24:43 AM »
They should have preserved the tradition of putting both finales on the disc so the listener can program it either way.
I agree wholeheartedly with this, but will be listening to the set regardless.

Offline Scarpia

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1677 on: September 11, 2017, 11:34:31 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly with this, but will be listening to the set regardless.

I may be listening to it, but I won't be paying for it. (Besides, I'm in the Festetics camp.)

Offline Jo498

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1678 on: September 12, 2017, 12:27:32 AM »
Around 3 min for the danza tedesca is not uncommon. I think the Petersen and the Hungarian Q played it quite a bit faster than 3 min. 3:40 must certainly be among the slowest renditions.
There has been a live op.130 with the Mosaiques floating around on the webs since 10 year ago or longer, so this issue seems overdue.
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Offline Scarpia

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Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1679 on: September 12, 2017, 10:24:28 AM »
Around 3 min for the danza tedesca is not uncommon. I think the Petersen and the Hungarian Q played it quite a bit faster than 3 min. 3:40 must certainly be among the slowest renditions.

I think 3:40 is certainly slower than what would be implied by Beethoven's tempo marking, but my two favorite recordings (La Salle and Cleveland) are in that ball park. The Italiano at 3:00 sounded too fast, but I just listened to the Amadeus, and at 2:45 and it sounded good.

It is starting to dawn on me that I actually don't like the Italiano Quartet.

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