Author Topic: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)  (Read 233176 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Baron Scarpia

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
  • Location: California
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1700 on: December 19, 2017, 02:20:48 PM »
Hello. About the controversial subject of Beethoven's tempi, I've been making some research and just realized one important fact that many maybe seem to be missing. The 9th was played in other parts of the world several months after it's debut in 1824, and received raving critiques. His other symphonies were also played by orchestras all over. So the conductors must have naturally followed the tempi that Beethoven marked. We have the original manuscript, and if it had wrong markings, they would have been corrected while Beethoven was still alive, in order for his 9th to have been played appropriately. The same goes for the broken metronome argument. Other conductors that played his symphonies must have communicated with Beethoven if they though his markings were off. Maybe some of these conductors were in the debut as well. The other argument that I've seen is that at the time they used one complete cycle of the metronome back and fourth, as one beat, so that would mean that the tempo should be halved, or something like that, and while not an expert on classical music, far from it, I am not sure about it, as it possibly wouldn't agree with the old system of "Allegro ma non troppo" e.t.c.

Your argument has huge assumptions. In Beethoven's time the metronome had just started to come into use. Quite possibly contemporary conductors looked at the traditional tempo markings and simply ignored the metronome markings.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1701 on: January 31, 2018, 01:41:41 PM »
Latest on Forbes.com


Classical CD Of The Week: Classic Beethoven From Vienna Via Korea


I would argue that this is the most successful of the six cycles the orchestra has recorded.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1702 on: February 01, 2018, 03:54:51 AM »
Don't you get tired of this constant click-baiting?

It's a review of that particular CD: Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt's recording of the 9 Beethoven Symphonies. Pretty straight-forward: If you might be interested, which would be nice and not unreasonable to assume, you could click on it. If not, don't.

I'm not sure that constitutes click-baiting. I'm not writing: "You'll NEVER believe what he did to the Seventh Symphony!!!" in the headline, am I?

What would you have me do? Not link? Not share these reviews?

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 46073
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1703 on: February 01, 2018, 04:08:04 AM »
Enjoy Beethoven better with this one weird trick
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 14227
  • Mihai, King of Romania (1921 - 2017)
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1704 on: February 01, 2018, 04:08:22 AM »
It's a review of that particular CD: Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt's recording of the 9 Beethoven Symphonies. Pretty straight-forward: If you might be interested, which would be nice and not unreasonable to assume, you could click on it. If not, don't.

I'm not sure that constitutes click-baiting. I'm not writing: "You'll NEVER believe what he did to the Seventh Symphony!!!" in the headline, am I?

What would you have me do? Not link? Not share these reviews?

The guy's been an attention-seeker ever since he landed here. Best attitude is to pay no attention to his non-musical posts.
In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia. - George Orwell

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 46073
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1705 on: February 01, 2018, 04:25:37 AM »
I’m glad Jens shares his reviews, and I think it is only in the nature of things that I myself do not necessarily read all of them.

(I mean, if there were more time, &c.)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 46073
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1706 on: February 01, 2018, 04:30:03 AM »
I don't have a Jens source bookmarked, but I generally make it to GMG each day.  So this is (among much else) my Jens portal, as it were.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1707 on: February 01, 2018, 04:32:12 AM »
Come on, J. I'm sure you know what I mean

No, I don't quite. Even if we agree that "clickbait" is something else, what's the measure we use to determine what's worthy content? If I agree not to post links to CD reviews I write, is this implicit agreement that we all shouldn't link to outside material? Or only not to our own outside material (i.e. self-serving, if you wish, links)? And if so, wouldn't that put pressue on Harry from Harry's corner -- whose MO precisely that is in the Listening thread -- not to do his thing?

Are you disappointed when you go into the Beethoven thread, hoping for substantive new commentary, only to find that it's only one of my stupid ol' reviews, a click removed? And that you can't even avoid that, even if you block me? (The latter bit is a pity - because that means that you can't really avoid my unfortunately insipid posts in a meaningful way.) But yes, mostly I'm confused about what exactly you object to.

The guy's been an attention-seeker ever since he landed here. Best attitude is to pay no attention to his non-musical posts.

For a second I thought you were talking about me!  ???

Enjoy Beethoven better with this one weird trick

 ;D

This is the review that record companies don't want you to see!

[actually, that just about happened with my daniel hope piece [no link!], to which  i got semi-friendly e-mails from Universal Communications in response. :-)]

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1708 on: February 01, 2018, 04:38:17 AM »

Or maybe you should share them here. Doesn't sharing under a link pointing somewhere else imply something?

Sharing them under a link pointing somewhere else implies: There is a source out there that published my writing. They seem to see the fact that someone lands on their site (or reads their magazine or whatever) as a benefit.

If I shared it here outright, what would be the point of the other source to bother offering me a platform (or paying me)? I hear a lot of complaints about newspapers, magazines et al. not finding it worth their time and effort (or even no time and effort) to report in some way on classical music. And yet, it seems the most natural thing that when there is a bit of content still being put out, whatever its quality, it should be shared not only freely but also in a manner as to provide no feedback/clicks at all to the originating source. That's not sustainable. Eyeballs on my articles suggest to Forbes that people actually care to read about that arcane stuff I write about. I'm afraid I cannot just copy and paste my reviews into the GMG forum for that reason. But to think that the GMG forum is filled with some people, as Karl's kind posts suggest, who would be interested in this or that bit that I share here, that seems to make sense to me. Does that not make sense?

Offline The One

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 360
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1709 on: February 01, 2018, 04:39:22 AM »
Sharing them under a link pointing somewhere else implies: There is a source out there that published my writing. They seem to see the fact that someone lands on their site (or reads their magazine or whatever) as a benefit.

If I shared it here outright, what would be the point of the other source to bother offering me a platform (or paying me)? I hear a lot of complaints about newspapers, magazines et al. not finding it worth their time and effort (or even no time and effort) to report in some way on classical music. And yet, it seems the most natural thing that when there is a bit of content still being put out, whatever its quality, it should be shared not only freely but also in a manner as to provide no feedback/clicks at all to the originating source. That's not sustainable. Eyeballs on my articles suggest to Forbes that people actually care to read about that arcane stuff I write about. I'm afraid I cannot just copy and paste my reviews into the GMG forum for that reason. But to think that the GMG forum is filled with some people, as Karl's kind posts suggest, who would be interested in this or that bit that I share here, that seems to make sense to me. Does that not make sense?

Alright. Apologies.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1710 on: February 01, 2018, 04:52:38 AM »
Alright. Apologies.

Thanks; appreciated & no worries. (Though I was beginning to wonder, after Orfeo's earlier streams of consciousness, whether Thursday was Belligerence-Day on GMG and no one told me.  >:(  ;)

Online Baron Scarpia

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 482
  • Location: California
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1711 on: February 01, 2018, 07:32:04 AM »
Thanks; appreciated & no worries. (Though I was beginning to wonder, after Orfeo's earlier streams of consciousness, whether Thursday was Belligerence-Day on GMG and no one told me.  >:(  ;)

Not Belligerence-Day, maybe the aftermath of that blue blood super moon, of whatever, that seemed to be hyped wherever I looked.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 46073
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1712 on: February 01, 2018, 07:34:03 AM »
Ectoplasm Moon!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Online (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6268
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1713 on: February 01, 2018, 08:24:15 AM »
Latest on Forbes.com


Classical CD Of The Week: Classic Beethoven From Vienna Via Korea


I would argue that this is the most successful of the six cycles the orchestra has recorded.

Physical discs can only be acquired from Korea, but the whole cycle (incl. the piano concerts with Backhaus and the violin concerto with Szeryng) can be downloaded in FLAC format from Presto Classical:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7923782--beethoven-complete-symphonies-other-works

I had some problems however with the Choral finale (unable to burn this particular movement to CDR- surely a file error), which Presto couldn't solve for me.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1714 on: February 01, 2018, 08:43:37 AM »
Physical discs can only be acquired from Korea, but the whole cycle (incl. the piano concerts with Backhaus and the violin concerto with Szeryng) can be downloaded in FLAC format from Presto Classical:

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7923782--beethoven-complete-symphonies-other-works

I had some problems however with the Choral finale (unable to burn this particular movement to CDR- surely a file error), which Presto couldn't solve for me.

Correct; also Apple Music has it with and without Decca branding. But I'm so physical in my outlook and habit, as regards music, that if it doesn't exist on CD, it just doesn't exist for me.  :D My flaw.

Online (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6268
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1715 on: February 01, 2018, 09:00:57 AM »
Correct; also Apple Music has it with and without Decca branding. But I'm so physical in my outlook and habit, as regards music, that if it doesn't exist on CD, it just doesn't exist for me:D My flaw.

So was I until about two years ago. Too many CDs, I wanted to hear, were unavailable as physical discs, so I resigned and began to purchase these in the shape of downloads. So far I have not regretted this.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline ørfeo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5453
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1716 on: February 01, 2018, 01:21:17 PM »
Thanks; appreciated & no worries. (Though I was beginning to wonder, after Orfeo's earlier streams of consciousness, whether Thursday was Belligerence-Day on GMG and no one told me.  >:(  ;)

I was on your side in this conversation, and then you had to push me into neutral.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1717 on: February 01, 2018, 01:27:15 PM »
I was on your side in this conversation, and then you had to push me into neutral.

I'm not clear on this... you were on my side when you called me... what was it: Ah, yes:

...but you're too dimwitted or pigheaded to understand it. And that's all the response you're getting.


...dimwitted or pigheaded (at least options, I guess). Or was that you already in neutral?

Offline ørfeo

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5453
    • A musical diary
  • Location: Canberra, Australia
  • Currently Listening to:
    Whatever's listed in my blog.
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1718 on: February 01, 2018, 01:29:05 PM »
This conversation. Not that conversation.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1191
  • Back. Hello!
    • Surprised by Beauty
  • Currently Listening to:
    anything from Monteverdi to Widmann and well beyond in either direction and everything in the middle!
Re: Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)
« Reply #1719 on: February 01, 2018, 11:04:44 PM »
This conversation. Not that conversation.

Oh, so you were on my side on this issue, based on the way you see the facts... except you didn't actually speak up. And when I mildly criticized you for calling me "pigheaded", you decided to let facts not affect your disaffection and become "neutral"... but speak up, at least. Gotcha! No, that makes perfect sense.

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK