Author Topic: The death of classical music  (Read 37912 times)

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Offline drogulus

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #220 on: February 09, 2008, 09:10:25 AM »
      Is classical music an assault on values or an upholder of values? It's both, but from outside it looks like an assault. The elite will always be critical of mainstream culture, but it must find a way to do this from within what it criticizes or suffer tissue rejection. Conceiving of the question of communication with an audience as a question of rights is a terrible mistake. Do we really need to reiterate what composers have a right to do?



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paulb

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #221 on: February 09, 2008, 10:23:18 AM »
      Is classical music an assault on values or an upholder of values? It's both, but from outside it looks like an assault. The elite will always be critical of mainstream culture, but it must find a way to do this from within what it criticizes or suffer tissue rejection. Conceiving of the question of communication with an audience as a question of rights is a terrible mistake. Do we really need to reiterate what composers have a right to do?





Drog, could you please come down to a  lower level, where i am at and translate for me?
 many Thanks :)

Offline Demonic Clarinet

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #222 on: February 10, 2008, 12:31:55 AM »
I'm not sure education really has much to do with it. Even those well-educated in classical-type music, who HAVE heard it, generally aren't interested.

paulb

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #223 on: February 10, 2008, 09:22:45 AM »
I'm not sure education really has much to do with it. Even those well-educated in classical-type music, who HAVE heard it, generally aren't interested.

 :o  :-X

I kinda know what you are talking about. just from yrs of observation of the musical elite academia attitudes and opinions.
Nothing more than a  hunch, a intuition, but here you  along you come as  a part of The Establishment and blows the whistle
:)

Offline B_cereus

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #224 on: February 12, 2008, 07:08:04 AM »
I wouldn't put too much hope in this; China is fascinated with a lot of things Western, especially if they make noise and pollute the environment.  But maybe they'll continue to infuse EuroAmerican classical music with their own traditions; now THAT might produce some great new music!  (It's been done before.  Remember Dvorak's symphony "From The New World"? :) )

I agree with Tsaraslondon. I think there is no doubt that China is seen by the classical music industry as the great untapped market.

It is true that fascination with the West is part of it - but the same was true of Japan in the early 20th century and again in its reincarnation following the second world war. Also, China had a thriving classical music scene before the Communist revolution (the pianist Fou Tsong is a link to that past), and this is now reviving in post-Mao China after decades of repression of what was deemed decadent bourgeois Western culture.

I think that in general, classical music is thriving in the Far East - Japan/China/Korea. Japan is well established, and China is an increasngly important host country for touring classical artists. Also it is striking how many competition finalists. and indeed winners, these days are from those countries.  I am also guessing that tapping the China market is part of the reason for DG's investment in Lang Lang, for example.

:)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 07:10:27 AM by B_cereus »

Offline jochanaan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #225 on: February 12, 2008, 04:52:28 PM »
Drog, could you please come down to a  lower level, where i am at and translate for me?
 many Thanks :)
I'm not drogulus, but I understand what he's talking about.  The great composers have often embraced musical styles that differed greatly from what was commonly accepted.  Beethoven is the prototype here; he seldom felt limited by "what's been done" and insisted on following his own muse even to his own cost.  Fortunately, some of his royal and noble friends were enlightened enough to recognize his genius even when they couldn't understand it.

Dmitri Shostakovich exemplified another way.  When the Stalinist Communist authorities of Soviet Russia clamped down on Soviet musical styles, Shostakovich complied outwardly, yet became a "two-faced" composer.  The music written for public consumption was brash yet musically conservative; but he also wrote a lot of music for himself and a few select friends, and these pieces were much darker and more radical than his "public" music.  Still, even in his "public" music there were often subversive elements that mostly slipped right under the authorities' noses. ;)
Imagination + discipline = creativity

paulb

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #226 on: February 13, 2008, 07:45:37 AM »
I'm not drogulus, but I understand what he's talking about.  The great composers have often embraced musical styles that differed greatly from what was commonly accepted.  Beethoven is the prototype here; he seldom felt limited by "what's been done" and insisted on following his own muse even to his own cost.  Fortunately, some of his royal and noble friends were enlightened enough to recognize his genius even when they couldn't understand it.

Dmitri Shostakovich exemplified another way.  When the Stalinist Communist authorities of Soviet Russia clamped down on Soviet musical styles, Shostakovich complied outwardly, yet became a "two-faced" composer.  The music written for public consumption was brash yet musically conservative; but he also wrote a lot of music for himself and a few select friends, and these pieces were much darker and more radical than his "public" music.  Still, even in his "public" music there were often subversive elements that mostly slipped right under the authorities' noses. ;)

Thanks Jochanaan for this enlightening commentary. Amazing how courageous Shostakovich was in the face of a  brutal dictator, and his henchmen who infiltrated the dept of the arts, the censorship.

Not sure why it is so , but seems the more a  composer suffered, the more I tend to like his music. True most often for me.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 07:47:30 AM by paulb »

Ephemerid

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #227 on: February 13, 2008, 08:00:07 AM »
Thanks Jochanaan for this enlightening commentary. Amazing how courageous Shostakovich was in the face of a  brutal dictator, and his henchmen who infiltrated the dept of the arts, the censorship.

Not sure why it is so , but seems the more a  composer suffered, the more I tend to like his music. True most often for me.

Paul, if you haven't already read it, I think you might enjoy Ian McDonald's biography, The New Shostakovich


Ephemerid

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #228 on: February 13, 2008, 08:03:39 AM »
To add: Just did a quick google on McDonald-- I knew he died quite young, but I didn't know he committed suicide! --or perhaps I had forgotten-- my brain feels like mush today (insomnia)

Offline jochanaan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #229 on: February 14, 2008, 07:52:13 AM »
Paul, if you haven't already read it, I think you might enjoy Ian McDonald's biography, The New Shostakovich
What is "New" about Mr. McDonald's understanding of Shostakovich?
Imagination + discipline = creativity

Offline marvinbrown

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #230 on: February 15, 2008, 05:15:11 AM »

Not sure why it is so , but seems the more a  composer suffered, the more I tend to like his music. True most often for me.

  Let's see Wagner (financial turmoil, constantly on the run from the law, failed romance), Chopin (dead in his 30s, failed romance, financial troubles), Mozart (dead in his 30s, financial troubles), Schubert (dead in his 30s) Beethoven (deafness, failed romance, family trouble) I think you might be on to something here with the more the suffering the more I tend to like a composer!

  marvin

Ephemerid

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #231 on: February 15, 2008, 06:28:00 PM »
What is "New" about Mr. McDonald's understanding of Shostakovich?

Well, not so new now, but it uses Volkov's controversial Testimony as a springboard.  The analyses of pieces are a bit overly literal, looking for hidden codes, etc. but there's some interesting biographical information & background about intellectual life in the Soviet Union.  To be taken with several grains of salt.  --Though DSCH's son has supported the basic gist of Volkov's Testimony, I don't guess we'll ever know what he really thought.  Not a loyalist or a dissident, but somewhere in between is what I'm thinking...

Karl has suggested Fay's bio instead, which I have not yet read, though I know its gotten a lot of critical praise...

« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:30:34 PM by Ephemerid »

Offline drogulus

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #232 on: February 17, 2008, 09:48:11 AM »
Drog, could you please come down to a  lower level, where i am at and translate for me?
 many Thanks :)

    Composers are trying to establish themselves in the art of music. You make a name by doing something new and by pleasing some audience. These may conflict, especially if you have the idea that they're supposed to. Even if you don't have that idea, doing something new is risky. Audiences don't always want to hear a new work even if it isn't radical. They like their favorites.

   
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Offline jochanaan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #233 on: February 18, 2008, 02:28:32 PM »
...They like their favorites.
Every favorite was once new. :)
Imagination + discipline = creativity

Offline drogulus

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #234 on: February 19, 2008, 07:13:22 AM »
I'm not drogulus, but I understand what he's talking about. 

    I wish you'd explain it to me.

Every favorite was once new. :)

    All favorites were born old.  :D
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Offline jochanaan

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #235 on: February 20, 2008, 05:26:21 PM »
    I wish you'd explain it to me.
On second thought, maybe I was just reading my own values into what you actually said...
    All favorites were born old.  :D
A popular misconception. ;)
Imagination + discipline = creativity

karlhenning

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #236 on: February 21, 2008, 06:17:59 AM »
Good morning, jochanaan!

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: The death of classical music
« Reply #237 on: February 21, 2008, 06:30:27 AM »
Joch:    Every favorite was once new.
Drog:    All favorites were born old.  :D

Yes and no to both statements. As TS Eliot said in "Tradition and the Individual Talent":
 
“What happens when a new work of art is created is something that happens simultaneously to all the works of art that preceded it.”
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."