Can a Case be Made for a Deistic Christian God?

[Dr. Dread]

There is no need to condescend to me.

That's his style.

[Joe_Campbell]

That's his style.

I don't know how he didn't see it coming, considering his disingenuous allusion of religious people to pigs.

[Dr. Dread]

I don't know how he didn't see it coming, considering his disingenuous allusion of religious people to pigs.

Pigs? Usually it's "sheep".

[Fëanor]

I am accused of "closed-mindedness".  Of course that's nothing new.

Let me tell you about my experience over at the Audio Asylum forum.  Skeptics there are regularly accused of being closed-mind because they won't spend their money to try products such as the "Brilliant Pebbles", picture below.

To those, at least audiophiles, who are, by that implication, open-minded, I commend the Machina Dynamica website.

[Fëanor]

Pigs? Usually it's "sheep".

And pigs are certainly smarter than sheep, as I hear.

[karlhenning]

And pigs are certainly smarter than sheep, as I hear.

Save perhaps for Harold, that most dangerous of creatures: a clever sheep.

[DavidRoss]

You are sounding selfrighteous and condescending, David.

Yes, swine are relatively intelligent animals, however I doubt they can be trained to sing. Pardon my skepticism on that point; but if you care to train a pig and post a little of his repertoire here, I'll be convinced.

Do you think I sound young?  Why? Because I haven't come to the same conclusions as you?  Am I closed-minded on that account?  I assure you I have pondered these matters for almost fify years, that is, since my late teens.  There is no need to condescend to me.

If I am actually being condescending and self-righteous I would like to know.  Can you please point that out? --especially if I've done something insulting, like claiming that you're a half-wit who believes in fairy tales because you cannot cope with reality. 

I have been quite direct in pointing out the logical failure and absurdity of some of your statements and Ernie's, but I have not called you a "stupid pig" or anything similar.  My responses have credited you with having the intellectual capacity and integrity necessary for fair consideration of the points I've addressed.  All of this is respectful, not condescending.     

I thought you sounded young, since your "arguments" are the same ones we all tossed around in college during late night bull sessions.  Like it or not, they are full of holes readily apparent to those with a modest grasp of logic and the limits of science.  Also, your failure to address the substantive criticisms I and others have offered, resorting instead to that famously mature and thoughtful response, "Oh yeah?--well you're just a stupid pig," suggests a cocksure adolescent, not a reasonably intelligent and mature fellow of 60+ years.  Usually by the time people reach such an age their youthful arrogance has long since been tempered by life's lessons in humility.

You may ponder for 50 years, but if you do not admit information from outside your closed system, the fruits of your pondering are likely to be insipid.  And if you are unwilling to take instruction in logic and critical thinking, then your chances of reaching valid conclusions are not terribly good.  Obviously you do not like hearing this and so far have been unwilling to consider it.  If labeling the messenger as "condescending and self-righteous" (or stupid and swinish) enables you to dismiss the message without too much cognitive dissonance, it is not surprising that you may choose to do that.  Few people have the moxie to critically examine their own beliefs.  I've never understood why this is so, since for as long as I can remember I've wanted to know if I was wrong about something, lest otherwise I be condemned to chronic ignorance and error. 

[Franco]

I seem to remember a Faulkner line that went something like, "Not counting the rat, the mule is the most intelligent animal."

[Dr. Dread]

If I am actually being condescending and self-righteous I would like to know.

Read your posting history. No offense, but I always say to myself, sure he has some good points, but why does he have to be such an ass about it? I don't think you used to be that way.

Check your ego, hold back on the subtle (or not so subtle) insults. and maybe more folks will listen to you.

[Fëanor]

...

You may ponder for 50 years, but if you do not admit information from without your closed system, the fruits of your pondering are not likely to amount to much.  And if you are unwilling to take instruction in logic and critical thinking, then the chances of reaching valid conclusions are not terribly good.  You clearly do not like hearing that message and are unwilling to consider it. ...
 

I think the kettle is calling the pot black, to use my grandmother's phrase.

[greg]

If I am actually being condescending and self-righteous I would like to know.

The tone of your posts get more and more angry- and I agree with MN Dave- I don't remember them sounding quite like they do now, maybe a year ago.
I don't follow everything you say, since I really don't know much about the discussion that go on here- but, with statements saying stuff like "Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto is like playing with Barbie dolls" (or something like that), I sometimes wonder...

[Bulldog]

The tone of your posts get more and more angry- and I agree with MN Dave- I don't remember them sounding quite like they do now, maybe a year ago.

What a difference a year can make!  You folks still haven't addressed my primary concern - why do religious services last so long? 

[Catison]

Just in response to the question about the idea of faith.  There are two definitions of faith being thrown around here.  There is faith, which is the simple kind of faith that your friends are telling you the truth or that the sun will come up in the east or that the force of gravity will pull in the same direction.  Then there is Faith, which for religious people, especially in the Judeo-Christian tradition, refers as the active response to belief in God.  This Faith involves praying, going to services during the week and in some sense leading a life with as little sin as possible.  These terms should not be confused.

So I would say that atheists have faith in their materialist understanding of the universe, but they do not have Faith.  That is not to say that religious people don't have faith in God, which they certainly do.  But pure faith in God is mere deism, and that is different than the more active Faith in God.

[Joe_Campbell]

I don't follow everything you say, since I really don't know much about the discussion that go on here- but, with statements saying stuff like "Final Fantasy and Grand Theft Auto is like playing with Barbie dolls" (or something like that), I sometimes wonder...

We must now bring into question the alleged objectivity of your criticism now, Greg.

[Dr. Dread]

Just in response to the question about the idea of faith.  There are two definitions of faith being thrown around here.  There is faith, which is the simple kind of faith that your friends are telling you the truth or that the sun will come up in the east or that the force of gravity will pull in the same direction.  Then there is Faith, which for religious people, especially in the Judeo-Christian tradition, refers as the active response to belief in God.  This Faith involves praying, going to services during the week and in some sense leading a life with as little sin as possible.  These terms should not be confused.

So I would say that atheists have faith in their materialist understanding of the universe, but they do not have Faith.  That is not to say that religious people don't have faith in God, which they certainly do.  But pure faith in God is mere deism, and that is different than the more active Faith in God.

Atheists have wishful thinking.

[greg]

We must now bring into question the alleged objectivity of your criticism now, Greg.

Hmmm well, I've played a Grand Theft Auto for a total of, maybe, 20 minutes in my lifetime.... it's not like playing with Barbie Dolls for obvious reasons...... um, some I'd rather not mention. It's an M-rated game, btw. That means 18+. I hope no 18 year olds still play with Barbie Dolls.
As for Final Fantasy, the series (and many games of the genre) are like the Mahler or Wagner of video games. You'll invest 40-70 hours in these game worlds. I could go into superlatives, but the basic point is, it's a little different than grabbing a Barbie Doll and playing dress up.

Atheists have wishful thinking.

lol! 
Atheism is wonderful- I mean, when you don't believe there will be paradise after you die, but you just rot in the ground after struggling through a miserable life, only to have all of your dreams vanish and never be realized, it just fills me with ecstasy!
Oh man, I hope this happens to all of us.  0:)

[greg]

On page 3 there is advice to Greg re. learning to distinguish between reason and rationalization followed by praise for his perceptiveness

yes, thank you, i guess, if i didn't already say it. 

[Dr. Dread]

This is great, Dave!  I'm glad that you see this, because I don't, so maybe you can help me with that blind spot, if you would be so kind?  I've just gone through my posts on this thread and maybe you will take a couple of minutes to help by going over them with me.

No. Thanks.

[DavidRoss]

No. Thanks.

Okay.

[greg]

No. Thanks.

lol