Salle Pleyel

[snyprrr]

Welcome to snyprrr's Lead Balloon Threads!

Ignace Pleyel was part of Mozart's gang of friends, best known for building pianos and having a recital room named after him; however, he appears to have written about as many SQs as Haydn, and was highly regarded at the time. Does anyone remember Ignace?

[Mozart]

Cello concertos anyone? I've been curious but have heard little music from Pleyel. His name sounds funny anyways.

[snyprrr]

Pleyel "Prussian" SQs 7-9/CPO- Pleyel Quartett Koln:

Well, this is the first conscious note of Pleyel's that I've heard. 3 out of 12 SQs dedicated to you-know-who, written in 1786.

Well, it was either this one, or the Naxos. I choose this one, figuring on just another year or two of maturity. Well (3 "wells" already ), I suppose Gurn was right: "Haydn Lite," though that's not really fair. Even the booklet brings this point up, saying that Pleyel's was a conscious decision to be different from Haydn, and not just that he wanted to make a quick buck by sounding more "popular."

But I had an epiphany listening to Haydn Op.64 No.3 on the PILZ recording. In this version, no repeats are taken, I believe, (at least this is the fleetest 64/3 ever???), so the SQ comes out to about 18mins; but what struck me is how the Menuett and Allegro con Spirito finale almost appear as one mvmt., meaning that here, in this recording, 64/3 has the sonic impression of a 3 mvmt. work, which is the way Pleyel wrote. So, as such, Pleyel reminds me a lot of Haydn Op.64, perhaps (if taken "straight up" w/ no repeats). mmm...perhaps...

Anyhow, I wonder how the "g minor" SQ of the Naxos disc compares with the one here. The one here wasn't all that "g minor-y", if you know what I mean. I heard the one on Naxos was a little bit more dramatic, perhaps.

Ultimately, Pleyel is reminding me of the less memorable Haydn. It's all quite friendly and non offensive, but for the talk about Pleyel's melodic appeal (vs Haydn's more "probing" method), I find things pretty status quo, with not that many "hooks" to grab on to.

If I had to choose between Pleyel and Dittersdorf... mmm... that's a toughy. Pleyel sounds more like Haydn, whilst Ditters sounds more like Mozart. Based on the two cds I have, I might have to go with the 'Dorf!

[Sean]

Hi snyprrr (what kind of name is that for an intelligent guy/ girl/ whatever you are?)

By Pleyel I know the Clarinet concertos In Bb & C & String quartet op.2/2, and I like your assessments of Pleyel & Dittersdorf.

[SonicMan46]

Hi Snyprrr - as you can imagine, Ignaz Pleyel is well known to many of us and was quite famous in this time; below is a quote from a thread in the Old Forum started by Gurn that gives a brief bio of Pleyel (at the bottom) - 

Pleyel was kind of a 'jack of all trades' during his life - a composer, musical publisher, and piano maker - his output was prolific, including composing 41 symphonies, 70 string quartets and several string quintets and operas; and likely much more.

Personally, I own just a half dozen or so CDs of his music (and have not checked recently on 'what else' may be available) - my ownings include:

Clarinet Concertos w/ Dieter Klockter on the CPO label.
Piano Trios w/ Trio Joachim on Dynamic.
String Quartets w/ Enso Quartet on Naxos.
Symphonies w/ Grodd et al on Naxos.
Symphonies w/ Bamert on Chandos.

Obviously he wrote so many Symphonies & SQs that other versions may be available? Dave 

IGNAZ JOSEPH PLEYEL (1757-1831)
Allan Badley

In the years immediately following Haydn's retirement his former pupil Ignaz Joseph Pleyel (1757-1831) was probably the most popular composer in Europe in addition to being an important music publisher and piano maker.

Little is known about the nature of Pleyel's studies with Haydn, which began around 1772, but evidently his progress was pleasing enough for his patron Count Ladislaus Erdödy to express his gratitude to Haydn by offering him a carriage and two horses for which Prince Esterházy agreed to provide a coachman and fodder. If Pleyel's studies resembled Beethoven's then we can assume that he undertook a systematic course of contrapuntal studies with Haydn, based on the composer's own annotated and revised version of Fux's influential treatise Gradus ad Parnassum, and supervision of Pleyel's exercises in free composition. During his studies with Haydn Pleyel's marionette opera Die Fee Urgele received its premiere at Eszterháza (November 1776) and was also performed at the Nationaltheater in Vienna. Haydn's marionette opera Die Feuerbrunst ( Hob. XXIXb:A) was also performed in 1776 or 1777 with an overture now believed to be largely by Pleyel.

Pleyel's first professional position seems to have as Kapellmeister to Count Erdödy although there is no documentation extant from this part of his career. Erdödy's musical establishment appears to have been quite substantial of the evidence of the material offered for sale by auction after his death in 1786 which included several hundred symphonies, concertos, quintets, operas and masses. Pleyel dedicated his String Quartets op.1 to Count Erdödy in appreciation of his 'generosity, paternal solicitude and encouragement'.

Pleyel travelled to Italy in the early 1780s and through the offices of Norbert Hadrava, a part-time composer attached to the Austrian embassy in Naples, he secured commissions to write pieces for lira organizzata (hurdy-gurdy) for performance by the King of Naples and in 1784 Hadrava arranged the commissioning of an opera, Ifigenia in Aulide, which received its premiere at the Teatro San Carlo on the King's nameday, 30 May 1785.

Around the same time Pleyel was appointed assistant to Franz Xaver Richter, Kapellmeister of Strasbourg Cathedral, and upon Richter's death in 1789 he succeeded to the first position. From 1786 he also organised and conducted a series of public concerts in collaboration with the Kapellmeister of the Strasbourg Temple Neuf, J. P. Schönfeld. The Strasbourg years were the most productive musically for Pleyel and indeed most of his compositions date from the years 1787-1795.

With his professional circumstances uncertain in the aftermath of the French Revolution Pleyel accepted an invitation to conduct the Professional Concerts in London and stayed there from December 1791 until May 1792. Although much was made of the rivalry between the Professional Concerts and Johann Peter Salomon's concert series of which Haydn was the great draw card, there is no evidence - and indeed much to the contrary - that relations between the two composers were strained. Haydn and Pleyel met frequently, dined together and even played each other's music. Haydn received the lion's share of the critical acclaim but Pleyel's concerts were well attended and his symphonies concertantes and quartets in particular were highly praised in the press.

Early in 1795 Pleyel settled in Paris, opened a music shop and founded a publishing house which, over the 39 years it was existence, issued over 4000 works including compositions by Boccherini, Beethoven, Clementi, Haydn and others. The enterprising Pleyel established agents for the sale of his publications all over Europe and sometimes arranged for reciprocal engraving of works by other leading publishing such as Artaria in Vienna and Breitkopf of Leipzig with whom he was in close contact. Among the historically most important publications issued by the Maison Pleyel were the first miniature scores and, in 1801, a Collection complette des quatuors d'Haydn, dédiée au Premier Consul Bonaparte. The first edition contained 80 quartets, subsequent editions adding two, then one, as Haydn composed them.

Pleyel travelled to Vienna with his son Camille in 1805 to establish a branch publishing office. In spite of strong support from his local friends the venture failed, the victim of a series of resource-sapping legal disputes. He tried unsuccessfully to sell the Maison Pleyel in 1813 and over the last twenty years of its life the firm shifted its emphasis away from symphonies, quartets and sonatas in favour of more popular repertory.

The enormous popularity of Pleyel's music in his own lifetime made him arguably the most famous composer in the world. As a measure of this, a Pleyel Society was founded in the whaling port of Nantucket (Mass.) in 1822. The most compelling evidence of this fame, however, is to be found in the staggering number of prints and manuscript copies of Pleyel's compositions which survive today. Like a number of composers with business acumen, Pleyel's best work was done relatively early in life before the distractions of extra-musical commitments took him away from full-time composition. Many of the works written in the shadow of Haydn in the 1780s are of exceptional quality, harmonically rich, structurally inventive and with highly original themes.

[SonicMan46]

Back to the top for comments on the ongoing series below - has been a while! 

Pleyel Quartett Köln from 2008-2014 has released the 3 CDs below of Pleyel's Prussian Quartets - Snyprrr back in 2009 seem to think that the third set below was second rate, and the reviews have been mixed - e.g. a positive MusicWeb review of Nos. 4-6 HERE; however, a scathing review of Nos. 7-9 by Jerry Dubins (attached) - are they really that bad!      Curious  - any comments from those who may own and/or have heard these works.  Thanks - Dave


   

[San Antone]

The string quintets have been collected on this disc.

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Recommended.

[SonicMan46]

The string quintets have been collected on this disc.

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Recommended.

Hi Sanantone - thanks for the recommendation - I have none of Pleyel's numerous Quintets - since my last post in 2009 - WOW!  I've added the additional discs below, all of which I enjoy - probably need some Quintets now!  Dave

   

[Sammy]

Back to the top for comments on the ongoing series below - has been a while! 

Pleyel Quartett Köln from 2008-2014 has released the 3 CDs below of Pleyel's Prussian Quartets - Snyprrr back in 2009 seem to think that the third set below was second rate, and the reviews have been mixed - e.g. a positive MusicWeb review of Nos. 4-6 HERE; however, a scathing review of Nos. 7-9 by Jerry Dubins (attached) - are they really that bad!      Curious  - any comments from those who may own and/or have heard these works.  Thanks - Dave

Dubins is not particularly in love with relatively obscure music of the Classical period; he also doesn't tend to be a big fan of period instruments.  With that in mind, I wouldn't give his review much attention.

Any reviews I've seen from Classical era enthusiasts have been complimentary.  As for me, I'm sort of in the middle.  Pleasant listening, but Pleyel can't hold up to Haydn or Mozart.

[snyprrr]

Back to the top for comments on the ongoing series below - has been a while! 

Pleyel Quartett Köln from 2008-2014 has released the 3 CDs below of Pleyel's Prussian Quartets - Snyprrr back in 2009 seem to think that the third set below was second rate, and the reviews have been mixed - e.g. a positive MusicWeb review of Nos. 4-6 HERE; however, a scathing review of Nos. 7-9 by Jerry Dubins (attached) - are they really that bad!      Curious  - any comments from those who may own and/or have heard these works.  Thanks - Dave


   

Oh,... yea,... right,... we all used to have fun HIP'ping off,... hmmm,... will have to get all the boxes of Early SQs,... wow, that was an interesting time back there in 2009,... ,... errrr, yea


If I recall, try the third SQ on that 7-9 disc, Eb or F I think. I recall Pleyel being very trimmed, like the the foliage in the paintings on the CPOs, that classic trimmed Classical garden (oy, why am I getting so hot and bothered???).

I mean, you neeed boring every once in a while?

[SonicMan46]

Dubins is not particularly in love with relatively obscure music of the Classical period; he also doesn't tend to be a big fan of period instruments.  With that in mind, I wouldn't give his review much attention.

Any reviews I've seen from Classical era enthusiasts have been complimentary.  As for me, I'm sort of in the middle.  Pleasant listening, but Pleyel can't hold up to Haydn or Mozart.

Hi Don - thanks for your appreciated comments - I feel the same, i.e. Pleyel is down a rung (or two) compared to the 'top runners' of the time, but sometimes a simpler approach to string quartet writing and performance offers less of a need for constant mental concentration.  I'm not sure that belittling these obviously talented composers because they are not up in the stratosphere of Haydn, Mozart, & Beethoven is a fair assessment - but just my 2 cents.  Dave

[Gurn Blanston]

Hi Don - thanks for your appreciated comments - I feel the same, i.e. Pleyel is down a rung (or two) compared to the 'top runners' of the time, but sometimes a simpler approach to string quartet writing and performance offers less of a need for constant mental concentration.  I'm not sure that belittling these obviously talented composers because they are not up in the stratosphere of Haydn, Mozart, & Beethoven is a fair assessment - but just my 2 cents.  Dave

I don't read reviews.

[San Antone]

I like the Classical period style so much that I can easily enjoy music by composers that are considered (by some) as residing on a level lower than the apogee of Haydn mountain.

[SonicMan46]

I like the Classical period style so much that I can easily enjoy music by composers that are considered (by some) as residing on a level lower than the apogee of Haydn mountain.

Same here - my favorite period of music seems to be from the early 1700s into the early 1800s, and the 'top' composers certainly make of a bulk of my collection from those years, but I do own a LOT of other composers (too many to even mentioned) from that era that I enjoy enormously, especially the writers of wind music. Dave

[SonicMan46]

Next to Beethoven, Pleyel was one of the most popular composers in the first third of the 19th century, so I was exploring his catalog by Rita Benton (Ignace Pleyel. A Thematic Catalogue of His Compositions. New York: Pendragon Press, 1977 - Source - she lists nearly 800 compositions of all sorts (note, she starts w/ 101) - I made a list of some below, for those interested - he was indeed prolific.  Dave

Duos - 66
Flute Quartets - 15
String Quartets - 84
String Quintets (or Winds) - 17
String Trios - 16
Symphonies (S. Concertante) - 54
Trio Sonatas - 49

[SonicMan46]

String Quartets, Op. 2 w/ the young American Ensö Quartet in two separate discs on Naxos - owned the first one for a while and just received the volume w/ Nos. 4-6 - these works were composed in 1784 as Op. 2, also B. 307-312 (from the catalog linked in my previous post).  Pleyel had studied w/ Haydn in the 1770s and then toured Italy for about 5 years before composing these works, so w/ all of his fertile imagination and this background from Papa Joe and the Italians an interesting style of SQ writing emerges and is worth hearing - on Amazon, Scott Morrison gives both of these discs 5* - another superlative review reprinted HERE - recommended.  Dave

P.S. the liner notes state Pleyel wrote 57 'authentic' string quartets, although I counted over 80 in the Benton catalog (about a dozen were A & B w/ the same number but that still is 20 more than stated previously) - I'm assuming that Rita Benton knows what she is talking about - comments?

 

[SonicMan46]

Well, after another year of dormancy -    Some new additions to my Pleyel collection (from a posting in the listening thread) - now own 3 discs from the 'Ars Produktion' series - there is an International Ignaz Joseph Pleyel Society, for those interested; also, a list of his works HERE as catalogued by Rita Benton and published in 1977 - his String Quartets are listed as Ben 301-370 w/ other types of quartets following; there were over a dozen String Quintets along w/ other Quintets with winds; his compositions totaled about 800 - Dave

Some new arrivals today:

Pleyel, Ignaz (1757-1831) - String Quartets & String Quintets w/ the Janáček Quartet & the Ignaz Pleyel Quintett, respectively - the quartets are from 1803 and the quintets, 1785-86.  Dave

 

[snyprrr]

Well, after another year of dormancy -    Some new additions to my Pleyel collection (from a posting in the listening thread) - now own 3 discs from the 'Ars Produktion' series - there is an International Ignaz Joseph Pleyel Society, for those interested; also, a list of his works HERE as catalogued by Rita Benton and published in 1977 - his String Quartets are listed as Ben 301-370 w/ other types of quartets following; there were over a dozen String Quintets along w/ other Quintets with winds; his compositions totaled about 800 - Dave

Oooo, those were the Late Pleyel Quartets, no? Maybe there were others all the way up to 1809, I don't know... anything particularly spectacular here? Keys, please!!

[SonicMan46]

Oooo, those were the Late Pleyel Quartets, no? Maybe there were others all the way up to 1809, I don't know... anything particularly spectacular here? Keys, please!!

Hey Snyprrr - these were indeed some of his last SQs - pic below from HERE - these were from 1803 and JUST noticed dedicated to Boccherini (not sure why - I need to read the liner notes more carefully) - the keys are listed - 'spectacular'?  Well, probably not but quite enjoyable, well played, and recorded.  I have 3 other discs of his SQuartets, so maybe own about a dozen of the 70 or so he wrote - amazingly prolific composer!  I just order 3 more CDs of his wind chamber works - Dave

[SonicMan46]

Just left the post at the bottom in the 'listening thread' - recently, as I was listening to my Pleyel collection of about a dozen or so discs, noticed the near absence of wind music, a favorite genre of mine from that period (had some 'Clarinet Concertos' w/ Consortium Classicum) - so, am now listening to the Partitas disc if the post below.

Also, on order are the two additional discs shown - Dave

 

Pleyel, Ignaz Joseph (1757-1831) - Wind Partitas w/ the PI group 'Amphion Wind Octet' - new arrival - if you're a fan of windy music from this era and like the look of the instruments in the group pic, then highly recommended - a review HERE by our own Brian (well done!) - Dave