Author Topic: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!  (Read 3427 times)

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head-case

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Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« on: June 06, 2007, 06:40:43 AM »
Sources: Thousands of Turkish troops enter Iraq

Quote
ANKARA, Turkey (AP) -- Several thousand Turkish troops crossed into northern Iraq early Wednesday to chase Kurdish guerrillas who operate from bases there, Turkish security officials said.

Two senior security officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media, said the raid was limited in scope and that it did not constitute the kind of large incursion that Turkish leaders have been discussing in recent weeks.

karlhenning

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2007, 06:48:37 AM »
Well, to comment simply on the subject header, until there is a legitimate Iraqi government which actually governs a defensible entity going by the name, Turks chasing Kurdish guerrillas doesn't quite rise to the level of an invasion of Iraq . . . .

Offline MishaK

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2007, 07:05:11 AM »
Depending on your definition, unauthorized intrusion into a sovereign state by military forces of another is an invasion. Likewise, the Swiss soldiers who during an exercise in the fog got lost in the mountains and wandered into Liechtenstein last yer could qualify as an invasion. Of course, nobody cared. That was an accident. In the case of Iraq vs. Turkey it's more of an issue of lack of any semblance of government in the former that is capable of policing its borders.

Offline orbital

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2007, 08:03:47 AM »
Turkey regularly goes into Iraq.  They have been since late 90's when the PKK threat started to grow. I don't know what the international agreements are, or whether there is a special agreement between the two countries but Iraqi government has never objected. I don't think it is too much out of the norm to carry out such operations where the neighbouring country can not control its own territory. Just like Israel regularly bombing the south of Lebanon.

What I mean to say is that, it is nothing new. There have been a lot of instances where Turkish military jets bombed the alleged camps too. There are regular attacks coming from the Kurdish guerillas crossing the border from Iraq into Turkey, and this is the Army's way of responding.

But in the end it is an endless and pointless struggle which should have been solved peacefully decades ago  :-\

Offline MishaK

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2007, 09:37:24 AM »
Turkey regularly goes into Iraq.  They have been since late 90's when the PKK threat started to grow.

Rather, you mean since after the '91 Gulf War and the imposition of the northern no-fly zone, which effectively prevented what was left of the Iraqi army from policing its borders. The "Kurdish threat", as you describe it, certainly manifested itself more strongly in earlier periods when, however, Iraqi sovereignty was not being questioned as it is today.

bwv 1080

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2007, 09:40:38 AM »
If this keeps up, Iraq may become politically unstable

mahlertitan

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 09:52:09 AM »
If this keeps up, Iraq may become politically unstable

i for one, think this is a valid reason for another troop surge.

head-case

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 09:55:24 AM »
i for one, think this is a valid reason for another troop surge.

I thought Turkey was on our side, which means this is another troop surge.

Offline orbital

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2007, 10:03:29 AM »
Rather, you mean since after the '91 Gulf War and the imposition of the northern no-fly zone, which effectively prevented what was left of the Iraqi army from policing its borders. The "Kurdish threat", as you describe it, certainly manifested itself more strongly in earlier periods when, however, Iraqi sovereignty was not being questioned as it is today.
PKK took arms in the 80's as far as I remember, but the threat (or the frequency and the amplitude of the attacks) have grown to be a serious problem in the 90's, while I was still living there. 80's had other problems for Turkey (an unprecedented amount of anarchy to the point of a civil war between the left and the right), that's when PKK began to attract more sympathizers  as they could claim that they were being opressed by the state both for ethnic reasons AND the fact that they were a Marxist based organization back then.

Following the military coup and the return to democracy(!) still not enough effort was being made to compensate for the democratic rights and the economical welfare of the people of that region. PKK grew to immense popularity and actual civil villagers started supporting and helping the organization, at the same time being heavily punished by the state for doing so,  which pushed them further into PKK's arms. There are tales of grim horror about what those people went through.

In the earlier periods that you mention, PKK had a much bigger strongehold in Turkey and could easily base camps, train people within the country. This period is when the heaviest casualties took place. It is mostly after the capture of the head of the group, Mr Ocalan, that the group dispersed around the area and more into Iraq (of course helped by the lack of authority in the Northern region). AFAIK, that's when the border penetrations started to happen much more frequently. The idea was to completely destroy the organization and not let a new power gathering of any sort take place nearby.
The current situation which is a big unknown, but presenting a prospect of a possible Northern Ira Kurdish state with important oil wells as well as crucial pipeline infrastructure is a nightmare scenario for the Turkish government. I would not be suprised at all if they went to an all-out war in case this occured, particularly with the strong right winds blowing over  :-\

caulfield

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 10:28:33 AM »
Sources: Thousands of Turkish troops enter Iraq


Check Reuters : http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL0690403220070606

In last five months approximately 60 soldiers and polices are martyred there. Here are some news about the terror attacks :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6537751.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6687631.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6718965.stm

Suicide attack in capital :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6681547.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6684549.stm

I think Turkey has already had every right for an operation. How often do you face with those kind of attack in your country ? How many people do you give martyr in a month ?..

Terror is a global problem and has no adress. We should defense againist to it all together. However there are two-faced double standarts againist to Turkey. It is sad to know some countries have been supporting those terrorist groups both econmically and with illegal arm traffiking. The ones who are sympathizers of the terrorist groups or support in anyway are terrorists, too.          


caulfield

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 10:33:36 AM »
PKK took arms in the 80's as far as I remember, but the threat (or the frequency and the amplitude of the attacks) have grown to be a serious problem in the 90's, while I was still living there. 80's had other problems for Turkey (an unprecedented amount of anarchy to the point of a civil war between the left and the right), that's when PKK began to attract more sympathizers  as they could claim that they were being opressed by the state both for ethnic reasons AND the fact that they were a Marxist based organization back then.

Following the military coup and the return to democracy(!) still not enough effort was being made to compensate for the democratic rights and the economical welfare of the people of that region. PKK grew to immense popularity and actual civil villagers started supporting and helping the organization, at the same time being heavily punished by the state for doing so,  which pushed them further into PKK's arms. There are tales of grim horror about what those people went through.

In the earlier periods that you mention, PKK had a much bigger strongehold in Turkey and could easily base camps, train people within the country. This period is when the heaviest casualties took place. It is mostly after the capture of the head of the group, Mr Ocalan, that the group dispersed around the area and more into Iraq (of course helped by the lack of authority in the Northern region). AFAIK, that's when the border penetrations started to happen much more frequently. The idea was to completely destroy the organization and not let a new power gathering of any sort take place nearby.
The current situation which is a big unknown, but presenting a prospect of a possible Northern Ira Kurdish state with important oil wells as well as crucial pipeline infrastructure is a nightmare scenario for the Turkish government. I would not be suprised at all if they went to an all-out war in case this occured, particularly with the strong right winds blowing over  :-\

Why do you call the head of terrorists as "Mr." ?!!!! 

Offline orbital

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 10:37:47 AM »
Why do you call the head of terrorists as "Mr." ?!!!! 
because he is male  ::)

Offline orbital

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 11:19:11 AM »
I hope you were well intentioned by calling like that  ::), but it isn't appropriate to call a terrorist as "mr.", it is very disrespectful to victims, to martyries and to their families, to innocent citizens and to armed forces.
If you call a terrorist, a head of terrorist, a supporter of terrorism/terrorist, a global criminal, or a baby killer as Mr., some people(like me) might guess that you have a hidden sympathy to him or to that terrorist group. The ones who support that kind of terrorist groups usually call them with respect. 
What do you think he was referred to as during his trial?

Believe me I have no sympathy for any war/terror/death mongerer. I can fully respect what a group is fighting for, but that does not mean that I agree with their methods.

caulfield

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2007, 12:02:55 PM »
What do you think he was referred to as during his trial?

Believe me I have no sympathy for any war/terror/death mongerer. I can fully respect what a group is fighting for, but that does not mean that I agree with their methods.

(...) Peace for all of us.

   

     
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 03:08:28 PM by qwert »

Offline orbital

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2007, 12:26:35 PM »

Without a doubt, What is supposed to fully respect is that the territorital integrity of the countries. It isn't acceptable and understandable to respect the aims of these kind of groups.
    
If this is an unconditional, blanket statement I can respect that. It might be a slippery slope though, because then you have Darfur, and Tibet and Cyprus and Russia and you-name-where  :)

I am of the view that it is people who are important and not principles. Whatever the people of the land want, goes.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2007, 12:28:17 PM by orbital »

caulfield

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2007, 12:40:53 PM »
(...) 

:(
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 03:07:56 PM by qwert »

Offline orbital

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2007, 12:57:24 PM »
while talking all these, a short while ago, 2 farmers dead on a terrain which is mined by terrorists. 

:(
sad :(

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2007, 01:04:09 PM »
A more pertinent question would be what Turkey has done and keeps doing concerning the human and civil rights of its important (more than 10 million people) Kurdish minority,  which resides mostly in these troubled south-eastern provinces neighbouring Iraq and Iran. Terrorist groups are reprehensible but on the other hand and more importantly, state terrorism shouldn't go unchecked and unchallenged. Both should be condemned and exposed for what they are if a non-violent and permanent solution is ever to be found.

Offline orbital

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Re: Turkey invades Iraq, lovely!
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2007, 07:48:32 PM »
A more pertinent question would be what Turkey has done and keeps doing concerning the human and civil rights of its important (more than 10 million people) Kurdish minority,  which resides mostly in these troubled south-eastern provinces neighbouring Iraq and Iran.
Obviously not enough. Happy people simply do not revolt. It is not a national trait to go out of your way, leave your good conditions behind and grab arms. People over there have been subject to very harsh conditions and oppression, but Wanderer I wouldn't know where to stop if I start with the things that are just plain wrong in Turkey :) It has a deep historical context, and just as every situation it has to be discussed within it. It starts with the nationalization of a large population of different ethnic origins. That's fine if you want to build a strong solid state, but you can only take people's basic rights and do not offer anything in return up to a certain point. After some time, it boils up. And you can keep oppressing, but this will only make the reprimands harsher in return.
Violence is always a vicious circle, but it keeps things in check during one's lifetime, and that's probably why we keep doing it again and again.