Author Topic: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)  (Read 8073 times)

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jlaurson

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2009, 03:13:23 AM »
I must admit that Tord Gustavsen clicked with me instantly and so much so that I hardly took time to take a good look at the rest


Glad to hear you liked the Tord Gustavsen. Had the pleasure of seeing them live some time after their CD came out--terrific music and lovely, very humble guys. To me they sound like a Keith Jarrett Trio would, if the actual Keith Jarrett Trio sounded anything like Keith Jarrett solo. (Which it doesn't.)

Offline Ciel_Rouge

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2009, 06:44:02 PM »
Alright, a few months later I finally arrived at my solid jazz tunes and I even know who Keith Jarrett is :D

Here are some examples of the real jazz things I am finally proud to define my taste with:

Cannonball Adderley - Jive Samba, Autumn Leaves, Bossa Nova Nemo
Cannonball Adderley Quintet - Mercy, Mercy, Mercy
Stan Getz - Autumn Leaves :-)
Dave Brubeck Quartet - Take Five

Now that what I like may finally be defined, I humbly look forward to your further guidance.

Offline matti

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2009, 06:52:35 AM »
You are ready for this now: Miles Davis, Kind of Blue

Henk

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2009, 07:30:16 AM »
Now that what I like may finally be defined, I humbly look forward to your further guidance.

I've provided you with a list of musicians and links to samples, according to your taste. You seem to be not very interested...
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 09:06:59 AM by Henk »

Offline Ciel_Rouge

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2009, 08:10:06 AM »
I shall revisit thy list, have no fear ;-) What I meant was further recommendations based on my new-ly proclaimed jazz manifesto where it can finally be defined what I like saxophone-wise and mood-wise ;-)

Offline jowcol

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2009, 08:54:09 AM »
I need to echo the recommendation of Miles Davis, Kind of Blue.  That is a seminal album, and defines "cool". 
here's a track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui8x9_WEl1g

I'm also a huge fan of the classic John Coltrane quartet-- although the sax playing is edgy, I get lost in the rhythm section.  For my own personal pantheon, this band was as essential as Stravinsky and Debussy are in 20th Century music.  The later stuff can be pretty abrasive, but the follow albums all have their moments which to me are among the very best that the last century has to offer in music.

My Favorite Things
Africa/Brass
Ole
Live at the Village Vanguard
Coltrane (blue cover, on Impulse label, with the song Out of This World)

As a newbie-- I'd avoid anything that was recorded after 1964. 

Drew Pearson was another from the period that had some really nice compositions that could be lyrical and introspective- although typically, it showed up on other peoples albums.  (Christo Redentor is simply gorgeous).  If you check out Grant Green's Idle Moments, or Matador, or Donald Byrd's a new perspective you can catch some great arrangements.


Also-- on the "soft jazz isn't jazz" discussion-- this dichotomy has been around for a LONG time.  The big band era wasn't all about Duke Ellington or Count Basie-- you also have the likes of Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey.  Charlie Parker did an album loaded with strings, and Coltrane did a "pop" album with Johnny Hartmann to appeal to the mainstream.

Herbie Mann also trod into pop to some degree, but still had Sonny Sharrock do some  very progressive soloing on on album.  In an interview he said "I was the Kenny G of my generation!" But he went on to say how jazz needed infusions of new styles, and pop to keep it alive.  I think there is some truth to this-- although it's more a matter of degree than a simple binary model.


"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

karlhenning

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2009, 09:01:58 AM »
Mingus Ah Um

jlaurson

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2009, 10:36:59 AM »

As a newbie-- I'd avoid anything that was recorded after 1964. 

  :o Maybe a bit drastic a measure.

Just caution, not avoidance, is in order.  ;)

Quote
... Charlie Parker did an album loaded with strings, and Coltrane did a "pop" album with Johnny Hartmann to appeal to the mainstream.

Hey, no mocking. I love the J.Coltrane & Hartmann album. I really do.  :D


John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman


Incidentally, I think that may be a great disc for you (whoever started this thread... Ciel_rouge??) to check out.

karlhenning

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2009, 08:20:42 PM »

Jazz
by Gary Giddins & Scott DeVeaux

Offline jowcol

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2009, 07:48:33 AM »
  :o Maybe a bit drastic a measure.

Just caution, not avoidance, is in order.  ;)

Hey, no mocking. I love the J.Coltrane & Hartmann album. I really do.  :D


John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman


Incidentally, I think that may be a great disc for you (whoever started this thread... Ciel_rouge??) to check out.

I'd agree that the Hartmann album is a success on its own terms, and you're right, it's a good starting point.

Late Coltrane (such as Ascensions,  Mediations, Om, Live in Seattlle and Live in Japan) I really admire on it's level, but I'd recommend it to someone who likes avante garde music in general.  It's profound stuff, but in can be very harrowing.  Of all his later works, Kulu Se Mama is a great starting point, in that the addition of African percussionists and the trancy  aspects to it make it much easier.

I must admit that OM was the first Coltrane album I bought, and it took me a while to come to grips with it- which delayed my getting to know the classic stuff.  Although, OM is a fave  of mine now, it's pretty freaky stuff.
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

Franco

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2009, 05:31:58 PM »
There is nothing "pop" about the John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman recording.  Just because a jazz group adds a vocalist does not automatically lower their artistic standards.  Coltrane's playing is good, as good as on many of his other recordings before and after.

The Cannonball + Nancy recording is another great jazz record.

Offline Ciel_Rouge

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2010, 05:25:01 PM »
I'm back to report my progress in the world of jazz. Recently someone sent me this link:

Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong - Summertime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIDOEsQL7lA

And I liked it A LOT. I wonder which album should I get to have it in a cornerstone original set of tracks, not some weird compilation. Also, did she record it only once or are there any other versions (I would like it to sound exactly like the one on YouTube). You could also make further recommendations based on the fact that I liked this piece and Fitzgerald's voice.

And one more thing - in an interview, Fitzgerald mentioned sining mostly bebop at some point. Of course I could check the term on Wiki etc. but it would be much faster and more informative if perhaps someone could paste a couple of links for each major jazz style or sub-genre or whatever it is called ;-) And how about swing? Is it a sub-genre in jazz or someting separate? Any characteristic swing examples?

jlaurson

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Offline jowcol

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2010, 08:28:06 AM »

Ella & Satchmoe

If you like that version of Summertime, you really need to check out Ella's cover of Angel Eyes.  A very moody piece, that varies between almost impressionist chords and schmaltz-- but the over effect is haunting beyond compare.  I had a version on a Verve Ella collection with only a piano backing-- I see a couple versions on youtube, and haven't listened to them yet.

Angel Eyes is one of the tunes where I compulsively collected different covers and versions.

"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington

zorzynek

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2010, 04:38:37 AM »
Ever tried ECMish smoothnesss like Tomasz Stańko, Anouar Brahem, Bobo Stenson, Jan Garbarek and so on?

Offline Ciel_Rouge

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2010, 12:42:51 PM »
Hi zorzynek :) Yeap, I had some exposure to Stańko, Garbarek and also Komeda and Możdżer. I'll check them out more closely soon. Thanks for Brahem and Stenson, I need to try them too. Take a look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1gaUn7_lCo

I really liked this comment:

"fajne klimaty , ludzie ponad poziomem codziennego , życiowego g√≥wna."

Well said. Respect to all who retain creativity under the pressure of plastic crap that surrounds us :)

zorzynek

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2010, 03:05:52 PM »
hej hej

well said indeed


I recommend any Brahem album except Khomsa.
Dunno if you're into mixing jazz and word music, if so check out

Renaud Garcia-Fons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXt6htVi3C4

Rabih Abou-Khalil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEX2VUyIlIg

and Indialucia led by Michał Czachowski:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xx7JFOuacU

Offline Ciel_Rouge

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2010, 04:55:25 PM »
I like world music and I do enjoy it combined with jazz as much as I like them separately. I had stumbled upon Indialucia about a year ago. I also liked the first link. The middle one sort of didn't fly with me. But keep them coming :D And I have yet to get myself acquainted with the giants, Ella Fitzgerald was a giant leap in my journey towards jazzland.

zorzynek

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2010, 02:28:11 AM »
I like world music and I do enjoy it combined with jazz as much as I like them separately. I had stumbled upon Indialucia about a year ago. I also liked the first link. The middle one sort of didn't fly with me. But keep them coming :D And I have yet to get myself acquainted with the giants, Ella Fitzgerald was a giant leap in my journey towards jazzland.

Did you tried Mingus yet?

Offline jowcol

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Re: Can I get into real jazz? If not, please help me with the smooth one ;-)
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2010, 05:57:24 AM »
Ever tried ECMish smoothnesss like Tomasz Stańko, Anouar Brahem, Bobo Stenson, Jan Garbarek and so on?

One ECM album I like a lot is Jon Abercrombie's Timeless.  Actually,  I don't listen to the album as a whole, but the title track is worthy of listening to on endless repeat for several hours.  Jack DeJonnette's brushwork and drumming are really superb, and the way the song develops and takes you over is really fantastic.  (There is also, for such a lyrical, dreamy tune, some nice meter changes). 

I just looked again at the first page about the debate about Smooth Jazz not being jazz.  Although 99% of it is not my cup of tea, (and, on a purely subjective level, Kenny G's backings make my ears bleed), but there were a lot of pop/crossover "jazz" bands in the swing era, among others, that had similar goals of incorporating jazz elements into a more readily accessible framework..  (Glen Miller and Tommy Dorsey, anyone?)  If we are going to draw distinctions between "smooth" and "real jazz", you will find out that nearly every stream of jazz has been attacked at one time or another by critics.  One of my favorites is  John Tynan's legendary review of the John Coltrane Quartet in 1961  that said, among other things:

 "At Hollywood's Renaissance club recently, I listened to a horrifying demonstration of what appears to be a growing anti-jazz trend exemplified by those foremost proponents [Coltrane and Dolphy] of what is termed avant garde music..l   . I heard a good rhythm section ... go to waste behind the nihilistic exercises of the two horns. ... Coltrane and Dolphy seem intent on deliberately destroying [swing]. ... They seem bent on pursuing an anarchistic course in their music that can but be termed anti-jazz."  Miles Davis also got tagged with a lot of virulent reviews when he went electric and incorporated funk and other elements, many saying that he abandoned jazz.   ( I love is free form funk bands in the 73-75 period) Those two "non-jazz" artists are two of my very favorite musicians of the last century in any genre.

Looking back at the last century or so in Jazz's development, I'd say that a binary assessment of jazz being "real or smooth" is an awfully simplistic model for the many streams of musical development that have been arbitrarily branded with the "jazz" category.   If you were to play Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz or Sun Ra to someone who thinks Dixieland is jazz, they would simply freak out.   Even "Swing" means something different between Benny Goodman and Sun Ra.


Ciel Rouge-- you also may want look into Dinah Washington.  I think there is a good two-disc compilation on the Mercury Level.  She started mostly with blues in the 40s, but also did Jazz and pop.  A very versitile artist, and her studio version of the Back Water Blues is really haunting (although it better to find that in a comp than the orginal album.).  If you like Ella, Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaughan and Betty Carter are must haves.  Oh-- Ella did a "blues" album in the early 60s that I enjoyed a lot.   (Whether the critics, or myself, consider it "real blues" is a topic I'll pass on.)
   
"If it sounds good, it is good."
Duke Ellington