Author Topic: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck  (Read 7914 times)

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Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2017, 11:53:53 AM »
Thanks, another interesting recommendation.

How is it that I can enjoy Sweelinck's music so much, yet be completely uninspired by Frescobaldi? I listened to every single minute of that 12 CD set, but found very little I ever want to return to again...
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2017, 12:14:19 PM »
Why don't you buy this and tell me whether it's any good? I think Eichelberger is pretty good in other things, including that NM set you have



Surely the NM choral set is available as a download?

Sweelinck didn't specify clavichord or harpsichord as far as I know, you can use whatever you have at your disposal.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 12:17:40 PM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2017, 11:13:59 PM »
I listened to Siegbert Rampe playing the Dowland/Sweelinck pavan last night, on a clavichord, I think that this track is itself sufficient reason for having the set.
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Offline Que

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2017, 12:28:44 AM »
Thanks, another interesting recommendation.

How is it that I can enjoy Sweelinck's music so much, yet be completely uninspired by Frescobaldi? I listened to every single minute of that 12 CD set, but found very little I ever want to return to again...

If you're referring to the set on Tactus with Vartolo? I hated that set so much, that I got rid of it.....  ::)
Had much to do with Vartolo's antiquated and liveless playing. The Lorregian set on Brilliant is significantly better, but not quite cutting it either.
Try recordings by Rinaldo Alessandrini on ARCANA of Andrea Marcon on DIVOX, or the idiosyncratic Enrico Baiano. Scott Ross' Toccatas recording is interesting as well.

As to by countyman Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck: I wouldn't waste my time hunting down more keyboard recordings...unless you're interested in a particular performer.
The superb NM Classics is pretty definitive as it is...and offers a variety of performers.

Sweelinck's other - vocal - music is orientated towards both Italian and French (Huguenot) influences.
Subdued and sober, but highly complex and intrinsicate under the surface. It's requires a lot if focus and dedication to get into the music.
But highly rewarding as well. Glossa's Sweelinck series offer definitive interpretations IMO:



Now...as to similar keyboard music to explore, there are two possible directions to go IMO.
Firstly English Renaissance keyboard music. First suggestions would (obviously) be to start at the top with the William Byrd set by Davitt Moroney:



A second avenue would be to trace Sweelinck's influence down to several later German composers.
Notably Heinrich Scheidemann and Matthias Weckmann.

Q
À chacun son goût.

Online Mandryka

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2017, 07:39:55 AM »
Try recordings by Rinaldo Alessandrini on ARCANA of Andrea Marcon on DIVOX, or the idiosyncratic Enrico Baiano. Scott Ross' Toccatas recording is interesting as well.



One problem with Frescobaldi is that there are very few recordings of Bk 2 of the toccatas, which are important, maybe the greater of the two books. 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 07:46:41 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Archaic Torso of Apollo

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2017, 07:43:07 AM »
I just finished the 12 CD Frescobaldi set (Loreggian, Vartolo et al), and it seems their styles are superficially similar--both, to a large degree representative of stylus fantasticus, I suppose. However, honestly, Frescobaldi bored me to tears! Their temperments (no pun intended) seem quite opposed, with Sweelinck more serious and contemplative--my take anyway.

Fire away.

Sweelinck and Byrd are my favorites among early keyboard composers. While I won't say Frescobaldi bores me - his music is too quirky and mercurial for that - I can't listen to much of it at a time, as I find it rather hard to follow. I guess I don't really understand his idiom well enough.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2017, 07:45:42 AM »

Sweelinck's other - vocal - music is orientated towards both Italian and French (Huguenot) influences.
Subdued and sober, but highly complex and intrinsicate under the surface. It's requires a lot if focus and dedication to get into the music.

It would be interesting to know who widely this experience is shared.
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Offline Marc

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2017, 11:01:25 AM »
[...]
3)  Sweelinck: "Ballo de[l] Granduca" Serge Schoonbroodt on a meantone tuned organ (renaissance organ -1600, restored 1998- in  L´Eglise Saint-Jacques, Liège).
[...]

Interesting:

https://www.aeolus-music.com/ae_en/All-Discs/AE10201-Sweelinck-Jan-Pieterszoon-Ballo-del-Granduca
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Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2017, 12:42:12 PM »
If you're referring to the set on Tactus with Vartolo? I hated that set so much, that I got rid of it.....  ::)
Had much to do with Vartolo's antiquated and liveless playing. The Lorregian set on Brilliant is significantly better, but not quite cutting it either.
Try recordings by Rinaldo Alessandrini on ARCANA of Andrea Marcon on DIVOX, or the idiosyncratic Enrico Baiano. Scott Ross' Toccatas recording is interesting as well.

As to by countyman Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck: I wouldn't waste my time hunting down more keyboard recordings...unless you're interested in a particular performer.
The superb NM Classics is pretty definitive as it is...and offers a variety of performers.

Sweelinck's other - vocal - music is orientated towards both Italian and French (Huguenot) influences.
Subdued and sober, but highly complex and intrinsicate under the surface. It's requires a lot if focus and dedication to get into the music.
But highly rewarding as well. Glossa's Sweelinck series offer definitive interpretations IMO:



Now...as to similar keyboard music to explore, there are two possible directions to go IMO.
Firstly English Renaissance keyboard music. First suggestions would (obviously) be to start at the top with the William Byrd set by Davitt Moroney:



A second avenue would be to trace Sweelinck's influence down to several later German composers.
Notably Heinrich Scheidemann and Matthias Weckmann.

Q

Hi, Yes the Tactus set. I listened to every minute of it and, as I mentioned, it bored me to tears. The instruments were mostly quite beautiful, but it just seemed the music consisted of pretty ornamentations and virtuosic displays without any compelling themes, counterpoint, or interesting harmonies. I don't think it is a matter of not liking this period, as I've been listening to a lot of Palestrina lately also and enjoy it a great deal.

I will look into these other recommendations (Thanks) and the Byrd as well. I was just about to post a thread about Byrd, as I have very little of his music and might be looking to get a good comprehensive boxed set is such a thing exists.

If you really dislike Bach you keep quiet about it! - Andras Schiff

Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2017, 12:46:48 PM »
It would be interesting to know who widely this experience is shared.

I'm not sure how you would define focus and dedication--reading and study? following scores? long, uninterrupted listening sessions? I have not done much of the first two with Sweelinck, and I am not in the habit of reading scores unless it is something I am looking to play myself on the piano. For me, Sweelinck's music is just naturally enjoyable with little effort required. As I alluded to above, I find it an immersive experience being overwhelmed by the complexity and beauty of the music, and also the wonderful sound of these instruments.

If you really dislike Bach you keep quiet about it! - Andras Schiff

Online Mandryka

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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2017, 10:01:01 PM »
Now...as to similar keyboard music to explore, there are two possible directions to go IMO.
Firstly English Renaissance keyboard music. First suggestions would (obviously) be to start at the top with . . . William Byrd

I don't think there's much evidence that either Byrd was influenced by Sweelinck or vice versa, apart from Engelsche Fortuyne. I could be wrong about this, though I just noticed that Bernard Winsemius includes no Byrd in his series on Sweelinck's Sources and Influences. There's an easy going hummable tunefulness to some of Sweelinck's keyboard works which I hear very much in Peter Philips, in fact I think that aspect of the music is stronger in Phillips.

I thought a bit more seriously about where someone who enjoys Sweelinck should go next, as it were. I now think that a compilation of music from the period and in the style is the best next step, rather than buying a lot of Philips or Byrd or whatever, then you get a quick taste of a whole lot of music and can decide for yourself what intrigues. Maybe the best place is in the set of four CDs by Bernard Winsemius I mentioned above, but they may have become very hard to find, I don't know. Alternatively the CD I recommend is called "War and Peace" by Bob van Asperen, which may well be one his best recitals in record, at least of those widely disseminated

« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 10:26:51 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Que

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #32 on: July 29, 2017, 11:57:18 PM »
I don't think there's much evidence that either Byrd was influenced by Sweelinck or vice versa, apart from Engelsche Fortuyne. I could be wrong about this, though I just noticed that Bernard Winsemius includes no Byrd in his series on Sweelinck's Sources and Influences. There's an easy going hummable tunefulness to some of Sweelinck's keyboard works which I hear very much in Peter Philips, in fact I think that aspect of the music is stronger in Phillips.

No evidence of direct influence, perhaps...
But if even Pieter Dirksen finds the similarities between the two composers striking, I can't be all that off the mark with my assessment it is similar music.  :)

His essay on the topic: http://www.academia.edu/8328531/Byrd_and_Sweelinck_Some_Cursory_Notes

Q
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Offline Marc

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2017, 12:50:02 AM »
He's a real speed demon.

I like the disc, but the 'interesting' fact to me is that it is available for only € 10,--.
On Amazon et al, the issue seemed to be OOP for quite some time.

So, to anyone who is interested, I would say: grab the opportunity! :)
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Offline Que

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2017, 12:57:40 AM »
I like the disc, but the 'interesting' fact to me is that it is available for only € 10,--.
On Amazon et al, the issue seemed to be OOP for quite some time.

So, to anyone who is interested, I would say: grab the opportunity! :)

Thanks! :)
À chacun son goût.

Online Mandryka

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2017, 01:58:46 AM »
I like the disc, but the 'interesting' fact to me is that it is available for only € 10,--.
On Amazon et al, the issue seemed to be OOP for quite some time.

So, to anyone who is interested, I would say: grab the opportunity! :)

I'm glad I have it, and it's very different from NM, but I just think it's a shame that it's not better recorded, all the reverb isn't good especially with someone who's playing so quickly. But, you know, he transmits energy and enthusiasm, and the interpretations are bold compared with mainstream NM style Sweelinck, and that's nice.

I'm listening as I type to him playing the Dowland/Sweelinck pavan, and it is really astonishing and irreverent. Not much by way of tears there . . . He's also interesting in the A minor ricercar, which is my favourite bit of music by Sweelinck.

I heard him play in Bordeaux. . .
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 02:03:46 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Marc

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2017, 02:57:15 AM »
I'm glad I have it, and it's very different from NM, but I just think it's a shame that it's not better recorded, all the reverb isn't good especially with someone who's playing so quickly. But, you know, he transmits energy and enthusiasm, and the interpretations are bold compared with mainstream NM style Sweelinck, and that's nice.

I'm listening as I type to him playing the Dowland/Sweelinck pavan, and it is really astonishing and irreverent. Not much by way of tears there . . . He's also interesting in the A minor ricercar, which is my favourite bit of music by Sweelinck.
[...]

Funny, because, when organ music is played in a church with large acoustics and more reverb, I prefer a faster tempo with apt phrasing and not that much legato, to give the reverb a lesser chance to make the sound diffuse.
So far, this has been my listening experience, both in live concerts and at my 'hifi' home. Hence I did not have any problems with this specific recording.

The Ricercar is indeed a great piece... I should listen to JPS more often. ;)

Btw, so far I have not checked Schoonbroodt's own website, because, according to my (Norton) internet safety control, his site is 'probably hacked'. :blank:
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2017, 03:22:26 AM »
it just seemed the music consisted of pretty ornamentations and virtuosic displays without any compelling themes, counterpoint, or interesting harmonies.

I recently listened to this:



and your description fits in it to a tee, not to mention the mostly slow tempi which result in a lifeless and boring listening experience. Absolutely the same goes for this:



Nothing at all to catch my attention, not even some fleeting moments. I guess Italian Renaissance keyboard music is simply not for me.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2017, 04:35:01 AM »
I recently listened to this:



and your description fits in it to a tee, not to mention the mostly slow tempi which result in a lifeless and boring listening experience. Absolutely the same goes for this:



Nothing at all to catch my attention, not even some fleeting moments. I guess Italian Renaissance keyboard music is simply not for me.

I remember a discussion here a few years ago with Premont, Marc and me where I said much the same sort of thing about Italian keyboard music, renaissance and baroque for me, though I've always been able to appreciate Frescobaldi. Here's my latest infatuation in Italian music though, the Storace Patoralle, which seems to me to anticipate Steve Reich

<a href="http://youtube.com/v/XToncb7-1gs" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://youtube.com/v/XToncb7-1gs</a>
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:42:22 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2017, 08:38:41 AM »
I'd said it before and I reiterate it now: afaIc, no melody, no music. I guess I should really stick with Late Baroque, Classical and Romantic --- and that's where I actually do stick ;D
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 08:41:12 AM by Florestan »
Les sanglots longs
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De l'automne
Blessent mon coeur
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Monotone.

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