Author Topic: Chez Stravinsky  (Read 125847 times)

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Re: Chez Stravinsky ROBERT CRAFT'S MADDENING DISCOGRAPHY
« Reply #1000 on: March 21, 2017, 05:29:32 PM »
The Naxos Apollo-Agon-Orpheus is a good one. I often recommend it.

Yea, that one I have, buuut, yes, the 'Orpheus' just SOUNDS really really good, but then the 'Apollo' does not share the exact same date (same orch, same venue, diff. date). I find the 'Apollo' recording to be what I meant by "MarcoPolo"- it sounds just a little aggressive to me (just the sound, not the playing or tempi).

Anyhow, yea, this one's great, but now I want simply the Koch with 'Orpheus' and 'Baiser',... this is the madness, once you start hearing things, you want them all on ONE disc, but noooo, now we have deck shuffling like crazy.

Also, you really have to look at these, because there seem to be oodles of things hidden on every disc, it''s a grab bag... why they did it this way??... I guess Igor did it this way, like that LP "New Compositions by IS", it didn't matter if it was a trio or orchestra...

sorry, rambling...


That said, though, none of these included the two Suites for chamber orchestra, or the Four Moody Norwegians, which for me do represent filler.)

Tell me that "Apollo' has the same SOUND as "Orpheus'. There is, by the sheer mixing together, a wealth of recording dates, and this is not Decca, and they're not the Concertgebouw...
Well, I just might be a dyed-in-the-wool fanboy, but there is nothing of even the lesser "filler" on any of the Koch or Music Masters issues which I don't want.  Well, perhaps they were items I didn't want when I first ordered the discs, but after I listened through, I found that I wanted them, only I hadn't known it  8)

My challenge has been the Naxos reissues, where the re-shuffling of the programs has prompted the question, do I want the redundancy?  (Similar story with the Schoenberg/Craft reissues on Naxos, of course.)

And I beg to differ, none of these suffer from Marco Polo soundstage/recording mrmmrmrmmrrm.

So, the Craft Top 3?  Tough to winnow it down!  Setting aside Threni (which Naxos hasn't touched, I think) I'm apt to vote for:

Le baiser de la fée (LSO)
Orpheus (LSO)
Le sacre (LSO again, I believe . . . there's an earlier recording with the Orchestra of St Luke's from the Music Masters vol. 1)


I cannot do so before my Friday concert, but now I am curious to do a comparison listen between the two Rites.

disregard whatever I wrote above...


Well, here you vindicated my suspicions... that Koch disc with ORPH-BAISer appears to have THE sound, with the LSO. 'Apollo', recorded on a diff. date, seems to not have the exact same great great sound, it only has- the "MarcoPolo" sound (that piece in particular, as directly compared to ORPH on the Naxos disc. IF IF IF  'Apollo' had the exact same sound, it would be a hands-downer.

Yes, I'm ranting, but I'm not even thinking ChaillyDutoitRattle... love Craft's 'Apollo', but the string sound, or recording sound is not the winner of the Best String recording of the year... I'm sure.


So, now, how does his BAISer compare with Knussen?




I checked a few Craft Koch/Naxos recordings- 'Dumbarton' certainly has the fastest 1st, very blistering (not as fast as one of IS's, which is ridiculously fastt). 'dANSES cONCERTANTES was equally full of vitality.

Yes, I could hear IS in Craft. He definitely "acts" like an Apostle, so that you can almost hear the actual hand of IS, as I'm sure is the intention of nurturing such a "son".

And, again with the sound- is he really aiming to also duplicate that bald recording sound in almost all of IS's recordings? Why not take advantage of glorious modern sound, AND play it the old way??

Problem is, the more glorious the sound, the more the tendency to "do something" (like wallow, cough cough Rattle Berlin 'Apollo'). When you have glorious sound, and you hear the conductor actively trying not to succumb to it, that's when you get those great, desperately glorious performances. maybe?


So, anyhow, I do give Craft FirstChoice in 'Orpheus'. (liked the Colin Davis sample too)





No mailman today.

The Kontarsky 'Sonata' arrived. Whew, that's just such a great sound. You really have to play NeoClassStrav like it's 1793 for it took play right, and they do. And I'm totally sold on Deszo Ranki in the Piano Music, lightest touch, perfect plink/plonk, really brings out out the Weber or wotnot... but you must hear this 1979 recording, perfect Teldec/Telefunken.

Chailly: Divertimento, Octet, 2 Suites, clarinet solo, trumpet duo 1980...has a very purposed and perfect feel, Decca clean


Maazel: Sym in 3 Mvmts, Soldier's Tale, Sym of Psalms... almost just like IS, with sumptuous sound... sumptuous RCA style



oh this comput r
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Haydn-Sikh

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Re: Chez Stravinsky SCENES DE BALLET
« Reply #1001 on: March 21, 2017, 05:30:57 PM »
[Ahem] That’s Arnie, not Arney. ;D



You will get his name right says The Red Gaze. :)

it's not a tumahhh :laugh:
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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1002 on: March 21, 2017, 06:41:58 PM »

That said, though, none of these included the two Suites for chamber orchestra, or the Four Moody Norwegians, which for me do represent filler.)


jeg er uenig

While they may be faux Norse, the Moods sound to me like echt Igor.

Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1003 on: March 21, 2017, 07:02:02 PM »
It's alright, I'll line up to be whipped  :laugh:

For what?  Being sophomoric when you are but a freshman? 
There is a sort of world-wide amnesty / slack cut for just such persons and such like occasions of their utterances. 

You've got this year and the next to get all that out before you are expected to be held more grimly accountable ;-)


Best regards.
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~

Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1004 on: March 21, 2017, 07:11:49 PM »
1000 Posts!


14,000 blank lines between text content!
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 07:14:46 PM by Monsieur Croche »
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~

Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1005 on: March 21, 2017, 07:30:33 PM »
:-[ :-[ :-[

You are right!!! You can hear and feel that wonderful subtle sound on the Columbia recording.  When I play it on a better stereo system it is there, you can feel it.  Oh joy unbounded.  Good old Igor got it right  :)

Whatever the fuss over this recording or that, In that Columbia series of recordings done in the 60's (the box set slips a few in from other times, Petrushka, for one), I.S. got the tempi, relative tempi from movement to movement / segment to segment, the articulation, and the dynamic balance of every part, especially when it comes to the vertical harmonies, absolutely right.  [Listen to the I.S. conducted Columbia recording of his Mass. Then check out the almost nasty balance of the instrumental harmonies in the Bernstein recording, rendering the vertical sonorities like a variety of candy-asschords that sound more like they are from a Broadway musical or popular songbook than Stravinsky.  What a shocker -- Lenny's sensibility imposed upon....I] 

My second 'go to' for a fine and different take of Stravinsky are those Stravinkys works recorded by Karl Ancerl and the Czech Philharmonic musicians (on Supraphon) done between ca. 1950 to 1968.


Best regards.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 08:45:37 AM by Monsieur Croche »
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1006 on: March 22, 2017, 05:01:17 AM »
ok, I've hit my first Indiana Jones moment...

You mean, “Don’t look, Marion!”...?
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Chez Stravinsky THE CRAFT DILEMMA UNCOVERED
« Reply #1007 on: March 22, 2017, 06:36:38 AM »
You mean, “Don’t look, Marion!”...?

Seriously, I spent last night trying... trying to collate Craft's performances... yea, it's worse than I thought...

THE QUESTION IS-

Did Koch also reissue the MusicMasters recordings, because there seems to already be duplication even before we get to Naxos. I specifically found a 'Pulcinella' on Koch, and on MusicMasters (the latter with St.Lukes(, and I saw two Symphonies in C (though I didn't get to verify one way or another).

I'll try and get my research into a Post... it really is an fd up shuffling though... no doubt confusion reigns, but not for long...


tO START... we do verify that the MusicMasters  (11 Vols.) came FIRST, right? Then, immediately (@1999) Koch (7 Vols.) takes over. Then some time passes, and then Naxos begins... IS THIS CORRECT?

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1008 on: March 22, 2017, 06:43:49 AM »

14,000 blank lines between text content!

wHOEVER'S DOING THAT SHOULD BE BANNED (whoops)!!! I'll back you 100% ;)
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1009 on: March 22, 2017, 06:54:05 AM »
Seriously, I spent last night trying... trying to collate Craft's performances... yea, it's worse than I thought...

THE QUESTION IS-

Did Koch also reissue the MusicMasters recordings, because there seems to already be duplication even before we get to Naxos.

While I cannot vouch that Koch did not reissue the Music Masters at all, I know that the Symphony of Psalms, Œdipus Rex and Le sacre on the Music Masters vol. 1 (Orch of St Luke's, Paul Newman narrating Rex) are distinct from later Koch recordings (the Philharmonia; Edward Fox narrating; and the LSO, respectively).

To START... we do verify that the MusicMasters  (11 Vols.) came FIRST, right? Then, immediately (@1999) Koch (7 Vols.) takes over. Then some time passes, and then Naxos begins... IS THIS CORRECT?

The ordering is right.  Vol. 1 of the Music Masters series was issued in 1991, so I don't know if 1999 counts as immediately  8)

And the question of what overlap there may be, remains.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Chez Stravinsky CRAFT DISCOGRAPHY
« Reply #1010 on: March 22, 2017, 07:44:05 AM »
MusicMasters                                                        Koch                                                                Naxos




V1 (2CD)                                                            VolL6                                                            #1
OEDIPUS........................................................OEDIPUS........................................................OEDIPUS
2 trumpet                                                           babel                                                              NOCES
DUMBARTON                                                      sermon
REQUIEM                                                         king/stars                                                                                         #2
SYM-PSALMS                    Vol??                                                      Vol??                                                 le rossignol
SACRE.......................  .SACRE....................................................   ..............................................................SACRE
                                       APOLLO                                                    ORPHEUS
                                                                                                            Baiser                                                         #3
                                                                                                                                                                              FIREBIRD com
V2                                                                                           Vol5                 Vol??                                            PETRUSHKA
PULCINELLA                                                                     SYM in C                PULCINELLA
SYM-C                                                                              SOWindInstr            3  solo clarinet                               #4
Russ.peasant Ch.                                                             Concertino                   picasso                                     PULCINELLA
NOCES                                                                             Pastorale                 Piano Concerto                                 Baiser
                                                                                          SOLDAT                   Dances Conc.
                                                                                                                                                                              #5
                                                                                                                                                                        APOLLO
V3                                                                                            Vol7                                                                  AGON
Persephone                                                                        SYM-PSALMS                                                         ORPHEUS
King/Stars                                                                             NOCES
SOWindInstr                                                                          THRENI                                                                   #6
Concertino                                                                                                                                                              SYM-PSALMS
Octet                                                                                                                                                                       3 Russian
                                                                                                                                                                                  MASS
                                                                                                                                                                                 Canticum
V4[/u                                                                                                                                                                         babel
Greeting Pre.                                                                                                                                                     
Star Spangled                                                                                                                                                            #7
DUMBARTON                                                                                                                                                             Octet
8 Instr. Minis.                                                                                                                                                          DUMBARTON
Circus P                                                                                                                                                                   SYM in C
Scherzo/Russe                                                                                                                                                         SYM-3 MVMTS
SCENES DE BALLET
AGON                                                                                                                                                                   #9
von himmel hoch                                                                                                                                                  Duo Concert
                                                                                                                                                                              Sonata 2P
                                                                                                                                                                             REQUIEM
                                                                                                                                                                               Abr+Isc
V5                                                                                                                                                                       Elegie
2 suites                                                                                                                                                                   Snowbird
4 etudes                                                                                                                                           
4 moods                                                                                                                                                                       
concerto 2P                                                                                                                                                                   
Ode                                                                                                                                                                     
Ragtime                                                                                                                                                                       
Piano Rag
RENARD



V6                                                                                                                                                        #10
RAKES PROGRESS???...RAKES PRGRSS

V7                                                                                                                                                                          #8
SOLDAT...SOLDAT
(marsellies)                                                                                                                                                              pastorale
(waltz)                                                                                                                                                                   3 solo clarinet
(2 sketches)(                                                                                                                                                                picasso
Pribkti...Pribkti
Cat/lullaby...Cat/lullaby
(Momentum)                                                                                                                                                             RENARD
MASS                                                                                                                                                                        songs
(dove)                                                                                                                                                                          songs
CANTICUM                                                                                                                                                       Scherzo/russe
                                                                                                                                                                                 Volga


V8
capriccio
CANTATA
septet
3 Shakespeare
Dylan Th.
Abr+Isc



V9                                                                                                                                                                    #11
Fireworks                                                                                                                                                                         JEU
FIREBIRD complete                                                                                                                                                   DANSES C
Canon/RussTune                                                                                                                                                 SCENES BLLT
4 etudes                                                                                                                                          VARIATI          
VARIATIONS                                                                                                                                                         capriccio
Concerto in D


V10
Petrushka
le Rossignol



V11
Violin Conc
Ebony cto
MOVEMENTS
songs
songs
songs
FLOOD                                                                                  Vol4
                                                                                                Firebird suite
                                                                                                JEU
                                                                                                SYM-3 MVMTS
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 07:13:25 PM by snyprrr »
Rat Poison is 99% Good Food, so Follow the Money

Haydn-Sikh

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    Things that are crisp and spritely vs. things that are thick and creamy
Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1011 on: March 22, 2017, 07:45:04 AM »
fffuuuuuuuuu... that didn't turn out well >:(
Rat Poison is 99% Good Food, so Follow the Money

Haydn-Sikh

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1012 on: March 22, 2017, 08:05:44 AM »
I tried to fix... uh boy, this is why I think computers are crap... anyhow, enjoy as much as you can, i may try to color code more, but, oy vey that sucked... hours
Rat Poison is 99% Good Food, so Follow the Money

Haydn-Sikh

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    Things that are crisp and spritely vs. things that are thick and creamy
Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1013 on: March 22, 2017, 08:56:00 AM »
ok, I did my best to fix what i could. You can plainly see there are PSALMS, SACRE, SYMPHONIES in ALL 3 PERMUTATIONS... I still haven't figured if they're differing orchestras or whatever... BUT, yes, there IS reason for confusion here.


Thank you snyprrr ::)
Rat Poison is 99% Good Food, so Follow the Money

Haydn-Sikh

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1014 on: March 22, 2017, 08:56:40 AM »
scared everyone off? :laugh:
Rat Poison is 99% Good Food, so Follow the Money

Haydn-Sikh

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1015 on: March 22, 2017, 03:34:39 PM »
It's actually... quite... beautiful :'(...
Rat Poison is 99% Good Food, so Follow the Money

Haydn-Sikh

Offline DaveF

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1016 on: March 23, 2017, 09:52:45 AM »
Mentioned a few pages back, and picked up today in my local Oxfam charity shop for £1.99:



A strange production altogether, a single disc in a 2-cd fatbox with an empty space for a second non-existent disc.  Very good fat booklet though, with lots of interesting information about abandoned other versions.  Apparently IS was planning one including pianola and cimbaloms.

And now I've seen the asking-prices for second-hand versions I'm feeling slightly guilty - not quite guilty enough to go and offer Oxfam a bit more, though.
"Just because I like something, it doesn't mean it's any good."

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1017 on: March 23, 2017, 10:27:44 AM »
Mentioned a few pages back, and picked up today in my local Oxfam charity shop for £1.99:



A strange production altogether, a single disc in a 2-cd fatbox with an empty space for a second non-existent disc.  Very good fat booklet though, with lots of interesting information about abandoned other versions.  Apparently IS was planning one including pianola and cimbaloms.

And now I've seen the asking-prices for second-hand versions I'm feeling slightly guilty - not quite guilty enough to go and offer Oxfam a bit more, though.

Odd, mine is in a regular-sized jewel case, though perhaps a larger case would house the booklet better.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1018 on: March 23, 2017, 10:35:07 AM »
Mentioned a few pages back, and picked up today in my local Oxfam charity shop for £1.99:



A strange production altogether, a single disc in a 2-cd fatbox with an empty space for a second non-existent disc.  Very good fat booklet though, with lots of interesting information about abandoned other versions.  Apparently IS was planning one including pianola and cimbaloms.

Maybe it was re-packaged by the re-seller?

It is a singular case of the composer mulling a serial variety of ensemble approaches, to a piece which is masterly in any version.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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    • Henningmusick
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    Shostakovich, Frescobaldi, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Chopin, Haydn, Henning
Re: Chez Stravinsky
« Reply #1019 on: March 23, 2017, 10:48:32 AM »
It's actually... quite... beautiful :'(...

But . . . I'm not sure I understand it.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot