Poll

Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach ?

Konzert für Streichquartett und Orchester (B-Dur) nach dem Concerto grosso  (Schönberg / Handel)
6 (66.7%)
Ricercar a 6 (Webern / Bach)
3 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Author Topic: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach  (Read 6455 times)

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bwv 1080

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Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« on: July 02, 2007, 09:46:53 AM »
I am of the opinion that Schönberg/Handel's Konzert für Streichquartett und Orchester (B-Dur) nach dem Concerto grosso
opus 6 Nr. 7 von Georg Friedrich Händel (in freier Umgestaltung)
has been greatly undersold by the musical 'intelligencia'. Undersold especially in relation to Webern / Bach, whose Ricercar a 6 seems to be admired way beyond what his output deserves in my opinion, it seems there is a 'cult of the Webern/Bach Ricercar a 6' almost, that keeps the likes of Schönberg/Handel's Konzert für Streichquartett und Orchester (B-Dur) nach dem Concerto grosso
opus 6 Nr. 7 von Georg Friedrich Händel (in freier Umgestaltung)
in his place.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 10:12:12 AM by bwv 1080 »

karlhenning

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2007, 09:58:47 AM »
Where's the outrage?

bwv 1080

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 10:34:25 AM »
Where's the outrage?

I tell ya, I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore

Offline PSmith08

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2007, 10:38:02 AM »
Where's the outrage?

Over on the "Handel-the-Mighty vs. Bach-the-Fraud" thread. With Outrage's busy schedule, you can't expect it to be everywhere all the time. In fact, Outrage has been outsourcing several issues a week to Apathy and Ennui. With all the injustice in the world, Outrage just can't handle the load. You'd be surprised how capable Apathy and Ennui are, though. Real go-getters, well as go-getter-y as Apathy and Ennui can be.

Offline BachQ

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2007, 12:25:30 PM »
Handel is clearly greater than Bach

Mark G. Simon

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2007, 01:47:10 PM »
Webern/Bach is a great way to introduce people to Webern's pointilistic orchestration techniques without having to subject them to (eeuw!) dissonant Webern music.

Schoenberg/Handel and Schoenberg/Monn are peculiar half-breeds which show neither Schoenberg nor his baroque models in their best light.  (IMHO)

bwv 1080

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2007, 02:08:49 PM »
Webern/Bach is a great way to introduce people to Webern's pointilistic orchestration techniques without having to subject them to (eeuw!) dissonant Webern music.

Schoenberg/Handel and Schoenberg/Monn are peculiar half-breeds which show neither Schoenberg nor his baroque models in their best light.  (IMHO)

Actually I would agree with this.  Especially with the option to listen to Schnittke's Concerto Grossi if you really want modernized baroque music.

Offline edward

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2007, 03:18:14 PM »
Actually I would agree with this.  Especially with the option to listen to Schnittke's Concerto Grossi if you really want modernized baroque music.
True, though the Schoenberg/Handel is hilariously stupid (in a good way).
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Offline scottscheule

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2007, 06:06:32 PM »
Silly. 

All music is equal and therefore all composers are equal.

Kullervo

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2007, 05:10:15 PM »
Silly. 

All music is equal and therefore all composers are equal.

So, Kajagoogoo is on the same artistic level as Sibelius? :)

bwv 1080

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2007, 06:50:51 PM »
Silly. 

All music is equal and therefore all composers are equal.

 if Handel = Bach = Webern = Schoenberg

then

Schoenberg + Handel > Bach

Offline beclemund

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2007, 09:53:59 PM »
if Handel = Bach = Webern = Schoenberg

then

Schoenberg + Handel > Bach

Likewise

Handel < Bach + Kajagoogo
"A guilty conscience needs to confess. A work of art is a confession." -- Albert Camus

Offline Rod Corkin

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2007, 10:26:46 PM »
Likewise

Handel < Bach + Kajagoogo


Bach > Handel = not an eyebrow raised
Handel > Bach = panic & disorientation

"I live for this kind of thing..."
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

lukeottevanger

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2007, 04:28:17 AM »
Whatever floats your boat.....

Offline Rod Corkin

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2007, 04:42:30 AM »
Whatever floats your boat.....

I was quoting Sergeant.

But the above is proof that having a distinct preference IS socially acceptable...as long as the socially acceptable preference is actually made.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 04:50:27 AM by Rod Corkin »
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
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lukeottevanger

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2007, 05:08:10 AM »
Yes, you may have mentioned that before. You may have been quoting Sargeant, but you still can't resist the opportunity to repeat this little hang-up of yours again. Still, as I said, if it floats your boat.

But, honestly, you think it is socially unacceptable to prefer Handel to Bach? To think Handel greater than Bach? Not at all, no more than preferring Haydn to Mozart, or thinking him greater. It's only your crowing, derisory tone that riles, and you know it - you use inflammatory language and tactics to stir people up, so that you can seize on their consternation to claim you have exposed some kind of conspiracy. If that's how you want to spend your life, do enjoy it.

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2007, 05:56:08 AM »
Handel > Bach = panic & disorientation

...and looting and hording; barricading of doors and windows against the walking zombies whose minds have been stunned senseless by the truth...your holy truth that Handel is demonstrably the greater composer. It's so sad and pathetic that people simply will not listen to you and instead go running away into the night with their ears covered, screaming, "No! We refuse to listen to clips! We refuse to believe! We know Bach is God!...Bach is God...Bach is God....."

Well, the fact is prophets have always been ignored and been called crazy. The world is full of heretics. You'll just have to live with that, Rod. But with your certainty and sense of righteousness that shouldn't be difficult. You might want to seek out the comfort of other prophets of your ilk: Pink Harp and paulb.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Rod Corkin

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2007, 06:30:29 AM »
Yes, you may have mentioned that before. You may have been quoting Sargeant, but you still can't resist the opportunity to repeat this little hang-up of yours again. Still, as I said, if it floats your boat.

But, honestly, you think it is socially unacceptable to prefer Handel to Bach? To think Handel greater than Bach? Not at all, no more than preferring Haydn to Mozart, or thinking him greater. It's only your crowing, derisory tone that riles, and you know it - you use inflammatory language and tactics to stir people up, so that you can seize on their consternation to claim you have exposed some kind of conspiracy. If that's how you want to spend your life, do enjoy it.

I don't spend my life doing this, I have a wife, a kid, a job in IBM right next to the Royal Festival Hall in London. Enough to keep me busy. But there is a deviant character to the academic Musical world for sure. If not a conspiracy and inbred cronyism. Over the years I have discovered a lot of B***S*** has been delivered from these guys as wisdom.

Even withing my personal sphere of specialisation how many times did I read that Beethoven's metronome marks are a mistake to be ignored, or more bizarrely that his piano music could not be performed on the pianos of his own time!? I recall a choral workshop on TV where the professor was working though choruses from Messiah. When making a specific compositional point he could not resist to add 'but Bach would have done it better'. All utter utter nonsense uttered by professors and professional performers alike. Well I for one am not taken in by any of it, and my taste and judgement is all the better for it.

You cannot teach people taste. You either have it or you don't. For example even a well known and respected name like Tchaikovsky thought Beethoven's late quartets were rubbish. Maybe this goes some way to explaining the awfulness of his own output.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2007, 08:11:35 AM by Rod Corkin »
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

Offline scottscheule

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2007, 08:15:21 AM »
So, Kajagoogoo is on the same artistic level as Sibelius? :)

According to a surprisingly large amount of posters here.

Kullervo

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Re: Schönberg / Handel vs. Webern / Bach
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2007, 08:35:50 AM »
According to a surprisingly large amount of posters here.

Okay. I'm not familiar with your posts to tell whether or not you were being sarcastic.

In all seriousness, I really do hate the democratization of taste (i.e. "it's not bad, it's just different!")

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