Author Topic: Missing Members  (Read 316787 times)

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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #880 on: December 28, 2014, 07:50:27 AM »
I haven't seen Monkey Greg on here in awhile. I hope he's okay. He might be on vacation.
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Offline EigenUser

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #881 on: December 28, 2014, 06:54:01 PM »
I haven't seen Monkey Greg on here in awhile. I hope he's okay. He might be on vacation.
I know. And he's the one mostly responsible for my Bruckner phase right now! I don't know how long it would have taken me to hear the 6th if it wasn't for his praise of the work.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Offline Moonfish

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #882 on: December 28, 2014, 07:13:11 PM »
I know. And he's the one mostly responsible for my Bruckner phase right now! I don't know how long it would have taken me to hear the 6th if it wasn't for his praise of the work.

I agree with you Eigenuser! Greig certainly made me (us) pay more attention to Bruckner's 6th and it has been a great experience!  :)
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Offline Brian

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #883 on: January 05, 2015, 08:04:13 PM »
I haven't seen Monkey Greg on here in awhile. I hope he's okay. He might be on vacation.
Just checked his Twitter, he posted something there on New Year's Eve. Hasn't been active here since Dec. 17. Probably having some holiday-themed family time.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #884 on: January 05, 2015, 09:30:42 PM »
Just checked his Twitter, he posted something there on New Year's Eve. Hasn't been active here since Dec. 17. Probably having some holiday-themed family time.

It's quite possible. I hope he returns soon.
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Offline Moonfish

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #885 on: January 05, 2015, 10:15:45 PM »
It's quite possible. I hope he returns soon.

For Bruckner's 7th....  :D
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #886 on: January 05, 2015, 10:42:14 PM »
For Bruckner's 7th....  :D

Yes, and also for his contributions to the Elgar thread. (like you, me, 71 dB, Elgarian, and several others here --- he's a huge fan)
“Works of art make rules; rules do not make works of art.” - Claude Debussy

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #887 on: January 16, 2015, 03:20:06 AM »
I suppose it is better if I explain why I will now leave the forum and, contrary to previous times, not be back in the future.

In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks performed last week, a few minutes from my home, on a journal I read and journalists and cartoonists I deeply admire, I had adopted this cover as an avatar :



Cabu, its author, had responded to the ridiculous "Piss Christ" exhibited in Avignon with an interesting and provocative proposal, that was reflecting a whole section of the journal on the theme of blasphemy, and how blasphemy cannot be forbidden in a true democracy, and even has to be encouraged.
This was a wretched but honest homage to Cabu, and the other murdered cartoonists (Charb, Wolinski, Tignous, Honoré) and journalists (among which the economist Bernard Maris), to their friends, and to other victims of fundamentalists last week, who had specifically targeted journalists, policemen and women, and jews. I intended to keep it a few days, at least after all of them were buried, all the homages were finished, and after the phase of collective mourning would have ended, probably too early anyway. I have explained that to the moderators, and refrained from posting on other topics that the one opened for CHarlie Hebdo, so that this image wouldn't be off topic (even if I don't think everyone has a musical avatar anyway).

At least one person on the forum decided that this image was unacceptable, offensive, and that it should be taken down. Of course, several persons had already turned the homage to Charlie into a debate in which they were simply, and not very cleverly, turning the whole thing into a war against all muslims and all the rest of humanity (when it seems, after his declarations yesterday, even the pope is much more closer from the terrorists in his arguments than from Charlie Hebdo, when he defends the right to "throw a fist in the face of someone who would insult my mother", one of the most frequent "parables" of islamists). One of them even adopted as an avatar the T-shirt inspired by a quote made by Jean-Marie Le Pen after the attacks, when he said "Je suis Charlie Martel", in reference to Charles Martel, the Frank king who, because he had defeated the Umeyyad califate in Poitiers (and despite these Umeyyad attacks were looting expeditions, and not aimed at conquest) became a distorted symbol of a millenial "clash of civilizations", for xenophobic movements in France. In this context, saying "Je suis Charlie Martel" is an incitation to declare war on all muslims and arabs in France, it has been immediately publicized as just this by the youth neonazi movement "Génération identitaire", and it is one of their shirts that was used as an avatar by Florestan. I asked uite gently for this image to be removed, as it is an incitation on racial hatred and violence, which are not legal activities and not protecting by the concept of free speech (just as djihadist appeals to join war against Western countries are also illegal and heavily punished). Jean-Marie Le Pen has been condemned multiple times for this kind of declarations (and for denying the existence of the Holocaust).

I did not come here for a couple days in order for the moderators to treat this issue calmly. The result is that both avatars have been suppressed as equivalently offensive and because they took "politics outside of the restricted area of the Diner" according to Que (when I have, as I already said, avoided other sections in order to avoid that).
Therefore, at the same time:
a) both images are deemed unacceptable because politically too engaged, when mine is a simple homage made to victims of religious bigotry and terrorist violence;
b) both images are suppressed only as "off-topic", when one is not more than "blasphemy" (and therefore legal in the country where my messages are posted, and where they are hosted, which is all that counts), and the other a call to xenophobic violence (and therefore illegal in the countries where Florestan writes and where the board is hosted).

I therefore leave because:
a) I can't accept to stay here when the official line is to consider blasphemy as an equivalent to xenophobic violence, because it is exactly the argument behind the killings, and it is exactly the reason why so many people have switched from "Je suis Charlie" last week to "wait, stop that now, you were supposed to be dead" in the past couple of days.
b) In addition, of course, freedom of speech doesn't apply here (we are on a forum, privately owned and managed) and there is an editorial line. This case simply proves that this editorial line is very lenient on far-right ideas, up to the point of hesitating in the censoring of hate speech and other illegal discourses against racial or religious categories, and jumping on blasphemy when it concerns Catholicism (at the same time, the recent cover aimed at Islam only was posted on the Charlie thread without any hesitation).

I thank all members who have engaged in musical discussions with me, and those who have suggested that I should remain calm and ignore the few morons here. I don't consider anyone a moron, I sufficiently respect every single person here to consider that the expression of an opinion, even a racist and violent one, should be considered as nothing else than what he truly believes in (and, therefore, considered as dangerous and legally condemned as such). And that the equivalency proposed by moderators between "blasphemy against other religions than muslim" and "incitation to violent actions against all muslims and arabs" is the result of a very coherent, deeply debated and truly shared editorial line here.
My interest in music, and my wish to kill a few hours discussing it online, is not so strong that I would renounce to a few personal basic principles, and endorse what this forum endorses as its editorial line. It is with great joy that I realized this is not at all where I belong, and leave your company.

Discobolus.

Offline The new erato

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #888 on: January 16, 2015, 04:12:07 AM »
Without delving to deep into this I have seen some of the tendencies you mention, and am concerned by them. The image you post here completely covers my own position.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #889 on: January 16, 2015, 04:23:19 AM »
Cabu, its author, had responded to the ridiculous "Piss Christ" exhibited in Avignon with an interesting and provocative proposal, that was reflecting a whole section of the journal on the theme of blasphemy, and how blasphemy cannot be forbidden in a true democracy, and even has to be encouraged.

"Cannot be forbidden," agreed.

Okay:  Why, exactly, "has to be encouraged"?

And I agree:  Piss Christ was perfectly ridiculous.  My objection is no matter of blasphemy, but of appallingly poor taste.  IOW, an artistic and not a religious objection.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #890 on: January 16, 2015, 04:34:17 AM »
Not that it matters anymore for him, but...

Discobolus is wrong. In Romania it is not illegal to wear a T-shirt stating "Je suis Charlie Martel"; it is not illegal to think, say and print that Charles Martel, or rather Karl Martell, did indeed save Western Europe from islamization (which is not even a matter of legal vs illegal, but of historical facts, geographical data and logic); it is not illegal to discuss Islam and to point out that it is not islamophobia that paints it as the harshest, bloodiest, most violent and intolerant religion on Earth, but the Quran, the Sirat and the Hadith themselves; much to his chagrin, it is not even illegal to quote Jean Marie Le Pen.

What is indeed illegal is slander, such as calling someone racist and xenophobic and implying he supports and promotes indiscriminate violence against muslims and arabs, without offering the slightest proof for such allegations.

As for abruptly leaving an environment just because some people happen not to agree with one's own views, it's up to anyone's maturity and sense of proportions to take or not to take the step. As far as I'm concerned, j'y suis, j'y reste:D
"I compose music because I must give utterance to my feelings, just as I talk because I must give utterance to my thoughts." --- Sergei Rachmaninoff

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #891 on: January 16, 2015, 04:38:12 AM »
Not that it matters anymore for him, but...

Discobolus is wrong.

Indeed.  He doesn't get how reacting to the violence of some extremists, by characterizing all religions' sacred texts as toilet tissue, is bigotry.  Or, like many, he feels that bigotry is a very, very bad thing — unless the object of your bigotry is people of faith.  Then bigotry becomes a virtue, nay — a social imperative!  "Blasphemy has to be encouraged."  Rubbish.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Online North Star

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #892 on: January 16, 2015, 04:48:07 AM »
History seems remarkable in its ability to repeat itself, albeit in slightly different shapes.
"Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it." - Confucius

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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #893 on: January 16, 2015, 05:29:00 AM »
There's a reason why I don't partake in political discussions here: they don't lead to anything fulfilling. Music is my one true love in this life, so in joining this forum, I came here to discuss music and only music. I will reply in threads like Greg's Failed Experiment thread because I like reading about other people's love lives and the encouragement I get from other members, but, alas, I'm here for the music. I have no interest in political or religious discussions.
“Works of art make rules; rules do not make works of art.” - Claude Debussy

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #894 on: January 16, 2015, 05:32:23 AM »
[...] I have no interest in political or religious discussions.

Very sensible!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Moonfish

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #895 on: January 16, 2015, 05:35:13 AM »
There's a reason why I don't partake in political discussions here: they don't lead to anything fulfilling. Music is my one true love in this life, so in joining this forum, I came here to discuss music and only music. I will reply in threads like Greg's Failed Experiment thread because I like reading about other people's love lives and the encouragement I get from other members, but, alas, I'm here for the music. I have no interest in political or religious discussions.

+1
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Offline Moonfish

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #896 on: January 16, 2015, 05:47:31 AM »
I think it is ridiculous that discussions in the diner lead to that contributing members leave GMG. Discobolus contributed greatly (in a very short time frame) to numerous threads in this forum. I am certain that most of us were interested in what went on in the "Haydn Symphonies" thread and the one discussing the Mozart piano sonatas in which Discobolus made very strong contributions. The upcoming thread on listening to versions of Mozart's Fantasia is now not likely to occur.  These threads were enriching and enjoyable giving all of us a chance to gain further insight and understanding of classical music.  Florestan's self-satisfied gloating over Discobolus' departure is not exactly a flattering ending to the "Je suis Charlie" issue here at GMG.
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kishnevi

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #897 on: January 16, 2015, 06:05:41 AM »
I do not think Florestan was gloating....
The Hebdo cover was offensive to me, and it troubles me that Discobolus can not see why using it as his avatar was itself needlessly offensive.

My current avatar, btw, is one of the four men martyred last Friday in Paris..

http://972mag.com/yoav-hattab-son-of-chief-rabbi-of-tunis-died-a-hero-and-tunisian-patriot/101249/

Offline The new erato

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #898 on: January 16, 2015, 06:16:49 AM »
I find the Charlie Martell avatar far more offensive than Discobolus avatarm, for what it's worth. I think this site anyway has much to loose by such posturing . I strongly support MIs view, and would prefer such discussions to be kept away from this site.

Ken B

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Re: Missing Members
« Reply #899 on: January 16, 2015, 06:18:19 AM »
Indeed.  He doesn't get how reacting to the violence of some extremists, by characterizing all religions' sacred texts as toilet tissue, is bigotry.  Or, like many, he feels that bigotry is a very, very bad thing — unless the object of your bigotry is people of faith.  Then bigotry becomes a virtue, nay — a social imperative!  "Blasphemy has to be encouraged."  Rubbish.

I agree, except for the last bit as I explain in point 4 below, and want to add a few random observations.

1. It was not Florestan who first objected to an avatar, nor was it Florestan who demanded an avatar be removed. That was Discobolus in both cases.

2. In no way is the T shirt an incitement to anything. Even if, and I do not grant this, it were an expression of xenophobia or bigotry that would still not make it an incitement. Not even close.

3. I support Discobolus's right to blaspheme and partly approve of his having done so (I will explain why in a moment). I do though think it sad that rather than defying the terrorists and bullies by attacking only their symbols he decided to treat exactly the same way those religions which can be safely mocked already, and whose adherents do not kill you for mocking. It's a false equivalence that misses the point. Nonetheless I would not have demanded he change his avatar.

4 As for when blasphemy is a good thing. When it is a gesture of defiance and the assertion of freedom against violent attacks.  I think that when a right is under attack it must be defended and prohibitions defied.  The de facto prohibition here is on depictions of Mohammed. So that is the blaphemous act which answers the terrorists. Charlie Hebdo did that on its latest cover. Discobolus did not do that. Posting a caricature of Jews when the terrorists killed Jews is not really what is called for.

 

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