Beethoven Symphonies HIP

[Spitz]

If you want to be disoriented, listen to Norrington's fast-paced slow movement in the 9th. I get dizzy and almost nauseous trying to slow it down a bit--I'm so used to the "romanticized" tempo. Even if Norrington is on Beethoven's wave length in this matter, I prefer Gardiner's more traditional reading.

[Valentino]

Disorientation can also be found in Grossmann's Funeral March. Not for the sedate of ways:
http://www.grunin.com/eroica/media/Grossmann_2002_2_173-211.mp3

[Coopmv]

If you want to be disoriented, listen to Norrington's fast-paced slow movement in the 9th. I get dizzy and almost nauseous trying to slow it down a bit--I'm so used to the "romanticized" tempo. Even if Norrington is on Beethoven's wave length in this matter, I prefer Gardiner's more traditional reading.

But was Gardiner's interpretation of Beethoven 9th really that traditional?

[Brian]

But was Gardiner's interpretation of Beethoven 9th really that traditional?

I certainly didn't think so - I love it for the way it busts down traditional walls, especially in that energetic, euphoric finale.

[Coopmv]

I certainly didn't think so - I love it for the way it busts down traditional walls, especially in that energetic, euphoric finale.

Not only the 9th.  I have his 5th (and 7th) and they sound different from the 5th (and 7th) found in all my other 16 cycles.  Gardiner intended to break away from the traditional interpretations with a totally new approach ...

[Sergeant Rock]

I like what I've heard of Norrington's first cycle (2, 7, , and I think I also wanted 5 from that cycle in M's Mystery Orchestra on that piece. I should get it just to hear what's so horribly wrong with that mach in 9.

There is nothing wrong with the tempo: it's perfectly paced at a military march tempo. It's one of the brilliant things about Norrington's Ninth. The entire Finale is superb.

Just ordered Brüggen's cycle from JPC. 15 Euro...they're giving it away!

Sarge

[Bunny]

There is nothing wrong with the tempo: it's perfectly paced at a military march tempo. It's one of the brilliant things about Norrington's Ninth. The entire Finale is superb.

Just ordered Brüggen's cycle from JPC. 15 Euro...they're giving it away!

Sarge

If the set has the Philips label on it, that may explain why it's so cheap.  Apparently at some time around June or July Universal no longer has the right to sell music under that label name, so all Philips cds that are unsold are to be returned to Universal, and destroyed.  Many shops are discounting them as a result.  If you look them up at many internet record stores, they are listed as "discontinued," "no longer available," etc.  I'm sure that they will be re-released with new packaging -- eventually.

[Coopmv]

If the set has the Philips label on it, that may explain why it's so cheap.  Apparently at some time around June or July Universal no longer has the right to sell music under that label name, so all Philips cds that are unsold are to be returned to Universal, and destroyed.  Many shops are discounting them as a result.  If you look them up at many internet record stores, they are listed as "discontinued," "no longer available," etc.  I'm sure that they will be re-released with new packaging -- eventually.

When Polygram was sold to Vivendi back in the 90's, it was still a subsidiary of  Philips of Eindhoven, was it not?  Then Vivendi got into some financial jam due to overleverage and went into a deal with NBC and UniversalMusic somehow evolved from that financial arrangement.  Perhaps Philips stipulated that the record label could no longer carry its name after so many years when it struck the deal with Vivendi back in the mid 90's ...   

[Elgarian]

I'm posting in this thread with some trepidation. I have only the vaguest notion about HIP (and that's almost entirely confined to my Baroque indulgences), and I have a set of Beethoven symphonies (Mackerras, RLPO) not so much because I want one, but rather because you have to have a set of Beethoven symphonies, and play them now and then. I know it's a shocking thing to say, but I've never been much of a Beethoven person. The earth has never moved, for me.

A few days ago, realising I had to act fast, I bought the Immerseel set from PrestoClassical for £11.50. Even at that price I thought I might be wasting my money. Why buy another Beethoven cycle, when I hardly ever play the one I have already? Could the period approach really make so much difference, despite the ravings of the reviewer in Gramophone?



It arrived today, and I put on the 5th symphony while I ate my lunch. I felt quite uncomfortable for the first few minutes - the way they race through that first movement is quite disconcerting, as if they all had a train to catch and catching it was a close-run thing. But by halfway through the movement I was starting to get into it; the excitement of it; the rawness of it, the vitality of it.

By halfway through I'd abandoned my lunch and was just listening. The exhilaration of it was utterly gripping; and the sound of the orchestra was captivating in a very curious way: none of that silky smoothness of massed modern strings that (I now realise) sucks the life out of the music by over-polishing, over-smoothing. I know it sounds silly to say this, but it sounds as if the instruments are having a good time. They seem to revel in the music they're individually producing - it reminds me of Ruskin's idea of vital beauty: 'felicitous fulfilment of purpose'.

If this is Beethoven, then quite simply - I've never heard Beethoven before. Listening to this 5th, today, is entirely and without qualification one of the most exciting roller-coaster musical experiences I've had for some time. Roll over, Chuck Berry. You never knew what it was really like.

[Gurn Blanston]

I'm posting in this thread with some trepidation. I have only the vaguest notion about HIP (and that's almost entirely confined to my Baroque indulgences), and I have a set of Beethoven symphonies (Mackerras, RLPO) not so much because I want one, but rather because you have to have a set of Beethoven symphonies, and play them now and then. I know it's a shocking thing to say, but I've never been much of a Beethoven person. The earth has never moved, for me.

A few days ago, realising I had to act fast, I bought the Immerseel set from PrestoClassical for £11.50. Even at that price I thought I might be wasting my money. Why buy another Beethoven cycle, when I hardly ever play the one I have already? Could the period approach really make so much difference, despite the ravings of the reviewer in Gramophone?



It arrived today, and I put on the 5th symphony while I ate my lunch. I felt quite uncomfortable for the first few minutes - the way they race through that first movement is quite disconcerting, as if they all had a train to catch and catching it was a close-run thing. But by halfway through the movement I was starting to get into it; the excitement of it; the rawness of it, the vitality of it.

By halfway through I'd abandoned my lunch and was just listening. The exhilaration of it was utterly gripping; and the sound of the orchestra was captivating in a very curious way: none of that silky smoothness of massed modern strings that (I now realise) sucks the life out of the music by over-polishing, over-smoothing. I know it sounds silly to say this, but it sounds as if the instruments are having a good time. They seem to revel in the music they're individually producing - it reminds me of Ruskin's idea of vital beauty: 'felicitous fulfilment of purpose'.

If this is Beethoven, then quite simply - I've never heard Beethoven before. Listening to this 5th, today, is entirely and without qualification one of the most exciting roller-coaster musical experiences I've had for some time. Roll over, Chuck Berry. You never knew what it was really like.

Elgarian,
I'm jealous of you! You are reliving an experience I had about 10 years ago, and which changed me forever to a period instrument (with all that implies) fan. Which is not to say that I wasn't already a Beethoven fan, I was. But the realization, as you so aptly put it, that modern orchestral sound "sucks the life out of the music" was what put me over the top. There is a certain rough-and-readiness to Immerseel (and Hogwood for that matter, which was my beginning) that just absolutely appeals to my ear and my ability to get in touch with this music. In any case, your Mackerras set is one of the better modern instrument sets, and if it didn't sell you on the music to this degree, then likely no other would either. Welcome to the fold...

[DavidW]

Well you know alot of what banishes the smoothness of massed strings is simply to employ a chamber orchestra instead of say the entire Berlin Philharmonic!  I say that the blenderized Beethoven is not something that only period instruments can defeat.  Most of it is the size of the orchestra, and the microphone placement.

Get off my lawn HIPpies!

[ChamberNut]

Get off my lawn HIPpies!

At first, I read this as 'hirpies' (even though I know that is the incorrect spelling).    How about an in between, like Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?  Historially informed performance on modern instruments?  0:)

[Gurn Blanston]

Well you know alot of what banishes the smoothness of massed strings is simply to employ a chamber orchestra instead of say the entire Berlin Philharmonic!  I say that the blenderized Beethoven is not something that only period instruments can defeat.  Most of it is the size of the orchestra, and the microphone placement.

Get off my lawn HIPpies!

Hey, you kids!



No, you are quite right. And neither does using PI guarantee a total banishment of homogeneity (witness Gardiner et al). But it is a step in the right direction, since performance styles are often coupled with PI.

[DavidW]

At first, I read this as 'hirpies' (even though I know that is the incorrect spelling).    How about an in between, like Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?  Historially informed performance on modern instruments?  0:)

HIP is the dumbest acronym ever.  To some extent every performance is HIP.  I will eschew such arrogance and call myself a PIon.  I enjoy the sound of period instruments while lacking the Wagnerian meglomania of HIPsters.

[DavidW]

Hey Gurn found a picture of Newman!   I think the problem with the Gardiner recording is that the placed the microphones in a different city!  Hey what's that light tinkling sound?  What do you mean that's a fortepiano, I can barely hear it!

[Gurn Blanston]

At first, I read this as 'hirpies' (even though I know that is the incorrect spelling).    How about an in between, like Harnoncourt and the Chamber Orchestra of Europe?  Historially informed performance on modern instruments?  0:)

Nice performances. I wish he had done them (with the various interpretive business) with Concentus Musicus Wien though...

[Gurn Blanston]

Hey Gurn found a picture of Newman!   I think the problem with the Gardiner recording is that the placed the microphones in a different city!  Hey what's that light tinkling sound?  What do you mean that's a fortepiano, I can barely hear it!

Well, and ORR is a big band too. I have a DVD of them doing the 9th at Carnegie Hall. I think there is a critical mass that is reached and suddenly PI loses it's advantage.

Yes, that picture was on the London Music School website along with his classmate;

[Opus106]

To some extent every performance is HIP.  I will eschew such arrogance and call myself a PIon.   I enjoy the sound of period instruments while lacking the Wagnerian meglomania of HIPsters.

You seem to be neutral in this case.

[Elgarian]

Well you know alot of what banishes the smoothness of massed strings is simply to employ a chamber orchestra instead of say the entire Berlin Philharmonic!  I say that the blenderized Beethoven is not something that only period instruments can defeat.  Most of it is the size of the orchestra, and the microphone placement.

But I don't care how they did it, David. If they can make Beethoven as exciting as this by using massed kazoos and banjos, then so be it. All I know is that whatever they did, it turned Beethoven from being nowhere in my list, even after decades of listening, to being an exhilarating palpable, pulsating presence, swooping up my personal hit parade. See? I'm out of control. I can't stop alliterating.

[Elgarian]

Elgarian,
I'm jealous of you! You are reliving an experience I had about 10 years ago, and which changed me forever to a period instrument (with all that implies) fan. Which is not to say that I wasn't already a Beethoven fan, I was. But the realization, as you so aptly put it, that modern orchestral sound "sucks the life out of the music" was what put me over the top. There is a certain rough-and-readiness to Immerseel (and Hogwood for that matter, which was my beginning) that just absolutely appeals to my ear and my ability to get in touch with this music.

It's been quite a perplexing day since the lunchtime revelation, wondering whether I was fooling myself: 'can it really make so much difference?' So I'm quite relieved to read this. Thanks.