Author Topic: Unpopular Opinions  (Read 207687 times)

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Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2420 on: October 09, 2017, 10:57:41 AM »
For me, it’s “Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring” when performed as a stand-alone instrumental piece.

Have you heard it played by Lipatti in his very last recital?

Context is everything.
Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2421 on: October 09, 2017, 11:36:29 AM »
TD:

Beethoven is singlehandedly culpable for introducing, promoting and championing the false and pernicious notions that (1) great music is / should be all about one's own idiosyncrasies and (2) aggressiveness, loudness and unruliness equal profundity. He singlehandely altered the course of Western music along these lines ---  for worse.

Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart

Offline Jo498

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2422 on: October 09, 2017, 11:44:01 AM »
Very little of Beethoven's music is about "his own idiosyncrasies", probably less than with John Dowland or Philipp Emanuel Bach. His music is as "objectivist" as JS Bach's or Mozart's when compared to e.g. Schumann's or Mahler's.



Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2423 on: October 09, 2017, 11:51:40 AM »
TD:

Beethoven is singlehandedly culpable for introducing, promoting and championing the false and pernicious notions that (1) great music is / should be all about one's own idiosyncrasies and (2) aggressiveness, loudness and unruliness equal profundity. He singlehandely altered the course of Western music along these lines ---  for worse.

Wrong thread. This belongs in the Silly Opinions thread. If there is no such a thread, you should start it since most of your posts would qualify  :D ;)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2424 on: October 09, 2017, 11:53:34 AM »
Very little of Beethoven's music is about "his own idiosyncrasies", probably less than with John Dowland or Philipp Emanuel Bach.

Excuse me? From quite early on Beethoven's music is all about himself and his own feelings and reactions.

Quote
His music is as "objectivist" as JS Bach's or Mozart's when compared to e.g. Schumann's or Mahler's.

I beg to differ. Beethoven is the first truly "subjectivist" composer. Schumann has very little, if any, of Beethoven's loudness, aggressiveness and unruliness, while Mahler never dwells on them for their own sake but sublimates them into a higher, more humane and human level.

JS Bach and Mozart are galaxies apart from Beethoven.
Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2425 on: October 09, 2017, 11:55:26 AM »
Wrong thread. This belongs in the Silly Opinions thread. If there is no such a thread, you should start it since most of your posts would qualify  :D ;)

Feel free to refute them.  ;D
Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart

Offline ritter

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2426 on: October 09, 2017, 11:56:30 AM »
...From quite early on Beethoven's music is all about himself and his own feelings and reactions.

... Beethoven is the first truly "subjectivist" composer. Schumann has very little, if any, of Beethoven's loudness, aggressiveness and unruliness, while Mahler never dwells on them for their own sake but sublimates them into a higher, more humane and human level.

JS Bach and Mozart are galaxies apart from Beethoven.
Lock him up!  ;D
Ritter
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”Sólo lo difícil es estimulante; sólo la resistencia que nos reta, es capaz de enarcar, suscitar y mantener nuestra potencia de conocimiento”.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2427 on: October 09, 2017, 12:00:14 PM »
Okay, I'll reformulate:

Beethoven is the greatest composer that Western music has ever known and anyone who does not bow to his altar is a dimwit and a heretic worth of being burned at the stake.

Ooops, wrong thread --- ain't it?  ;D >:D :P
Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart

Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2428 on: October 09, 2017, 12:01:44 PM »
Feel free to refute them.  ;D

Beethoven needs no help from me.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline ritter

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2429 on: October 09, 2017, 12:04:49 PM »
Okay, I'll reformulate:

Beethoven is the greatest composer that Western music has ever known and anyone who does not bow to his altar is a dimwit and a heretic worth of being burned at the stake.


Wrong again  ::)...That's Wagner. ;)
Ritter
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”Sólo lo difícil es estimulante; sólo la resistencia que nos reta, es capaz de enarcar, suscitar y mantener nuestra potencia de conocimiento”.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2430 on: October 09, 2017, 12:18:25 PM »
Please give ONE example of a prominent and unruly work by Beethoven that is "all about himself" and show how one could tell that it is "all about himself". Maybe the first major obviously loud and unruly work by Beethoven is the "Eroica" which is supposedly about Napoleon Bonaparte. Almost all of the earlier works by Beethoven are mainly about trying to compose as well as Mozart did (maybe a little more obviously virtuosic and updated to 1800, not 1780s), not about anything personal.

Whereas Schumann literally puts names of his friends and love interests into his pieces and writes pseudo-biographic romantic stuff *within his scores". Like "Eusebius added this with his eyes full of tears" or similar drivel. Of course, this is mainly a kind of "game", assuming the persona of a lovesick romantic poet on the brink of madness.
Like Beethoven's game is (often) individual heroism against impossible odds (but generalized, not about any particular human, least of all Beethoven). Like Mozart's game is showing humans with  conflicting erotic attractions in their comical confusion.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

ComposerOfAvantGarde

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2431 on: October 09, 2017, 12:24:28 PM »
Wrong again  ::)...That's Wagner. ;)
I like this opinion very much. ;D

Offline Brian

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2432 on: October 09, 2017, 12:52:43 PM »
Florestan on Beethoven might be the most unpopular opinion in this thread...

Offline Pat B

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2433 on: October 09, 2017, 12:53:55 PM »
Have you heard it played by Lipatti in his very last recital?

Context is everything.

Yes.

The musical context (and scoring) of the full BWV 147 help. The performance context of the performer will soon die of cancer does not.

Offline Turbot nouveaux

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2434 on: October 09, 2017, 01:08:31 PM »
Well, I'm glad my post on Einaudi seems to have got in under the radar, anyway...  ;D

ComposerOfAvantGarde

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Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2435 on: October 09, 2017, 01:59:07 PM »
It must be too unpopular to even begin a discussion! Congratulations. :)

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2436 on: October 09, 2017, 02:02:20 PM »
TD:

Beethoven is singlehandedly culpable for introducing, promoting and championing the false and pernicious notions that (1) great music is / should be all about one's own idiosyncrasies and (2) aggressiveness, loudness and unruliness equal profundity. He singlehandely altered the course of Western music along these lines ---  for worse.



Even ancient statues are facepalming this ridiculous assertion.
“I really would like to go to Marmorkirken. It was there that I heard music for the first time, and that experience is like a heavenly vision for me.” - Rued Langgaard

Parsifal

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2437 on: October 09, 2017, 02:16:09 PM »
Have you heard it played by Lipatti in his very last recital?

Context is everything.

Were you in Besançon that day in 1950? The performance of Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring was not recorded at the recital (he had left the stage and returned for the encore, as the story is told). If you've come across it on Youtube it was a studio recording he made some time before.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2438 on: October 09, 2017, 09:12:49 PM »
Florestan on Beethoven might be the most unpopular opinion in this thread...

You seem to be the only one that got the whole thing right.  :-*

EDIT: My source of inspiration was this:

How Beethoven Ruined Classical Music

There are many "gems" therein, but the prize goes to the assertion that Bach was committed to Enlightenment values.  ???

« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:30:45 PM by Florestan »
Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart

Offline Florestan

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Re: Unpopular Opinions
« Reply #2439 on: October 09, 2017, 09:16:24 PM »
The performance of Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring was not recorded at the recital (he had left the stage and returned for the encore, as the story is told).

Yes, you're right. I had a brain fart.

Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart