Author Topic: Brahms Chamber Music  (Read 58196 times)

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Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #320 on: December 11, 2012, 05:29:43 PM »
I'm currently watching Bob Greenberg's DVD biography of Brahms (Teaching Company) - the Horn Trio is being emphazied on a later episode - STATED is that JB preferred the 'natural horn' - WELL, I own two performances of this wonderful work but both are on valved horns - OH, the shame!  ;) ;D

SO, for those into this work and knowing of performances on the 'natural horn' - any recommendations?  Thanks - Dave :)

Offline TheGSMoeller

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #321 on: December 11, 2012, 05:33:49 PM »
I'm currently watching Bob Greenberg's DVD biography of Brahms (Teaching Company) - the Horn Trio is being emphazied on a later episode - STATED is that JB preferred the 'natural horn' - WELL, I own two performances of this wonderful work but both are on valved horns - OH, the shame!  ;) ;D

SO, for those into this work and knowing of performances on the 'natural horn' - any recommendations?  Thanks - Dave :)


Offline TheGSMoeller

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #322 on: December 11, 2012, 05:35:41 PM »
haha! almost a minute apart.  ;)

Offline SonicMan46

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #323 on: December 11, 2012, 05:39:11 PM »
BOY, you guys are 'fast on the draw'!  ;D

I'll wait a few more seconds to see what others may be suggested!   ;) :D   Dave

Offline North Star

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #324 on: December 11, 2012, 05:44:37 PM »
BOY, you guys are 'fast on the draw'!  ;D

I'll wait a few more seconds to see what others may be suggested!   ;) :D   Dave

I don't think there are others, apart from Lubin & co., but that's OOP. available for 4.95 €

« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 05:46:52 PM by North Star »
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Offline Octave

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #325 on: January 17, 2013, 12:40:24 AM »
I am interested in this Busch/Serkin/et al collection



which seems to contain some key recordings, esp. (I think) that Horn Trio.  One online friend told me that Andromeda produces poor quality transfers, though.  Still thought I would ask about this particular set.

Thanks everyone for contribution to this thread; I'm having to construct a Xmas 2013 list of Brahms alone.  Already broken down and purchased a few things I didn't know I needed.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 12:42:21 AM by Octave »
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Offline liuzerus87

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #326 on: January 19, 2013, 06:18:02 PM »
Octave,

If you are interested mainly in the Horn Trio, then check out the Testament release of that same recording paired with the Brahms Clarinet Quintet with Reginald Kell, another landmark recording.



Needless to say, those Amazon prices are not the lowest you can find.

Offline Octave

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #327 on: January 19, 2013, 06:36:26 PM »
Thanks for that recommendation, liuzerus87.  Indeed, not sure what's wrong with Amazon/MP on the Testament front....some items that are not totally OOP afaik are selling for astronomical prices, it's insane.  That Testament disc is almost certainly the one I'm going to get.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #328 on: February 05, 2017, 03:42:14 AM »
Because I could not quite decide yet on the Naxos historicals and my Brahms chamber shelf is, while well stocked, not quite as crowded as some others and this is a save spacing box, I ordered the following. I already own recordings involving the Busch's and Rubinstein from the respective collections but I figured that at bargain price there were enough recordings left that are not easy to get separately and are supposedly very good. (I also sometimes think that Brahms, more than Beethoven or Mozart, is a composer where the older generations of musicians tend to have an edge over contemporary ones.)



Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Online aligreto

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #329 on: February 05, 2017, 09:40:02 AM »
Because I could not quite decide yet on the Naxos historicals and my Brahms chamber shelf is, while well stocked, not quite as crowded as some others and this is a save spacing box, I ordered the following. I already own recordings involving the Busch's and Rubinstein from the respective collections but I figured that at bargain price there were enough recordings left that are not easy to get separately and are supposedly very good. (I also sometimes think that Brahms, more than Beethoven or Mozart, is a composer where the older generations of musicians tend to have an edge over contemporary ones.)



An interesting thought. Would that be due to the gravitas required in the performances do you think? I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts on that.
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Offline North Star

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #330 on: February 05, 2017, 09:50:08 AM »
An interesting thought. Would that be due to the gravitas required in the performances do you think? I would be genuinely interested in your thoughts on that.
Well, Brahms was much closer in time to the musical culture of the early 20th century, with people who studied under persons who knew Brahms recording the music, whereas that Late Romantic tradition was quite far from Beethoven and Mozart.
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Online aligreto

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #331 on: February 05, 2017, 11:32:38 AM »
Well, Brahms was much closer in time to the musical culture of the early 20th century, with people who studied under persons who knew Brahms recording the music, whereas that Late Romantic tradition was quite far from Beethoven and Mozart.

A valid point Karlo  ;)
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #332 on: February 05, 2017, 01:20:14 PM »
Of course it is some stretch to claim that Rubinstein in 1965 played Brahms chamber music in a superior fashion only or mainly because he was old enough to have played with friends/pupils of Brahms in his youth. (If pressed, I'd just say that Rubinstein was very good in Brahms, whatever the reasons.)
But the Busch/Serkin recordings from the 1930s are historically quite close and all these musicians received their training before WW I, basically grew up with the old or recently deceased Brahms the most important instrumental/chamber composer still around and often studied with close friends or pupils of Brahms. So while there are also "oral" traditions and heritages claiming closeness to Liszt or Chopin, I'd say that Brahms we can be reasonably certain to have such a connection.

tbh the stuff in the box that is not Busch/Serkin/Rubinstein has probably no good claim to specific closeness to Brahms and his circle. As the link does not give the contents:

Johannes Brahms
Brahms musique de chambre

CD1
Sonate pour violon et piano no 1 en sol majeur op. 78
Josef Suk (violon), Josef Hala. 1956

Sonate pour violon et piano no 2 en la majeur op. 100
Adolf Busch (violon), Rudolf Serkin (piano). 1932

Sonate pour violon et piano no 3 en ré mineur op. 108
Gioconda De Vito (violon), Edwin Fischer (piano). 1954

Scherzo en ut mineur WoO 2 (de la Sonate "F.A.E."
Nathan Milstein (violon), Carlo Bussotti (piano). 1954

BONUS
Regenlied op. 59 no 3
Elisabeth Grümmer (soprano), Gerald Moore (piano). 1959

Wie Melodien zieht es mir
Immer leiser wird mein Schlummer
Lisa Della Casa (soprano), Karl Hudez (piano). 1952

Auf dem Kirchhofe
Lotte Lehmann (soprano), Paul Ulanowsky (piano). 1941

CD2
Sonate pour violoncelle et piano no 1 en mi mineur op. 38
Gregor Piatigorsky (violoncelle), Arthur Rubinstein (piano). 1936
Janos Starker (violoncelle), György Sebök (piano). 1959

Sonate pour violoncelle et piano no 2 en fa majeur op. 99
Janos Starker (violoncelle), György Sebök (piano). 1959

CD3
Sonate pour clarinette et piano no 1 en fa mineur op. 120 no 1
Sonate pour clarinette et piano no 2 en mi bémol majeur op. 120 no 2
Reginald Kell (clarinette), Mieczyslaw Horszowski (piano). 1949

Sonate pour alto et piano no 1 en fa mineur op. 120 no 1
William Primrose (alto), Jesus Maria Sanroma (piano). 1939
Sonate pour alto et piano no 2 en mi bémol majeur op. 120 no 2
William Primrose (alto), Rudolf Firkusny (piano). 1958

CD4
Quintette pour clarinette et cordes en si mineur op. 115
Leopod Wlach (clarinette), Wiener Konzerthaus Quartett. 1953

Trio pour clarinette, violoncelle et piano en la mineur op. 114
Reginald Kell (clarinette), Frank Miller (violoncelle), Mieczyslaw Horszowski
   (piano). 1950

CD5
Trio pour piano, violon et violoncelle no 1 en si majeur op. 8
Edwin Fischer (piano), Wolfgang Schneiderhan (violon), Enrico Mainardi
   (violoncelle). 1954

Trio pour piano, violon et violoncelle no 2 en ut majeur op. 87
Gary Graffman (piano), Berl Senofsky (violon), Shirley Trepel (violoncelle).
   1959

BONUS
Sonate pour violon et piano no 2 en la majeur op. 100
Szymon Goldberg (violon), Artur Balsam (piano). 1953

CD6
Trio pour piano, violon et violoncelle no 3 en ut mineur op. 101
Eugene Istomin (piano), Isaac Stern (violon), Leonard Rose (violoncelle). 1966

Trio pour piano, violon et cor en mi bémol majeur op. 40
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Michael Tree (violon), Myron Bloom (cor). 1960
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Adolf Busch (violon), Audrey Brain (cor). 1933

CD7
Quatuor à cordes no 1 en ut mineur op. 51 no 1
Quatuor Amadeus. 1959

Quatuor à cordes no 2 en la mineur op. 51 no 2
Quatuor de Hollywood. 1952

CD8
Quatuor à cordes no 3 en si bémol majeur op. 67
Quatuor de Budapest. 1933

Quintette pour piano et cordes en fa mineur op. 34
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Quatuor Busch. 1938

CD9
Quatuor pour piano et cordes no 1 en sol mineur op. 25
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Quatuor Busch. 1949
Arthur Rubinstein (piano), Quatuor Pro Arte. 1932

CD10
Quatuor pour piano et cordes no 2 en la majeur op. 26
Clifford Curzon (piano), Quatuor de Budapest. 1952

Quatuor pour piano et cordes no 3 en ut mineur op. 60
Arthur Rubinstein (piano), Quatuor Guarneri. 1967

CD11
Quintette à cordes no 1 en fa majeur op. 88
Quatuor de Budapest, Alfred Hobday (alto). 1937

Quintette à cordes no 2 en sol majeur op. 111
Quatuor de Budapest, Hans Mahlke (alto). 1932

BONUS
Sonate pour violon et piano no 3 en ré mineur op. 108
Joseph Szigeti (violon), Egon Petri (piano). 1935

CD12
Sextuor à cordes no 1 en si bémol majeur op. 18
Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields Chamber Ensemble. 1992

Sextuor à cordes no 2 en sol majeur op. 36
Pina Carmirelli, Jon Toth (violons), Caroline Levine, Philipp Naegele (altos),
   Dorothy Reichenberger, Fortunato Arico (violoncelles). 1967



Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Online aligreto

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #333 on: February 05, 2017, 02:18:24 PM »
Of course it is some stretch to claim that Rubinstein in 1965 played Brahms chamber music in a superior fashion only or mainly because he was old enough to have played with friends/pupils of Brahms in his youth. (If pressed, I'd just say that Rubinstein was very good in Brahms, whatever the reasons.)
But the Busch/Serkin recordings from the 1930s are historically quite close and all these musicians received their training before WW I, basically grew up with the old or recently deceased Brahms the most important instrumental/chamber composer still around and often studied with close friends or pupils of Brahms. So while there are also "oral" traditions and heritages claiming closeness to Liszt or Chopin, I'd say that Brahms we can be reasonably certain to have such a connection.

tbh the stuff in the box that is not Busch/Serkin/Rubinstein has probably no good claim to specific closeness to Brahms and his circle. As the link does not give the contents:

Johannes Brahms
Brahms musique de chambre

CD1
Sonate pour violon et piano no 1 en sol majeur op. 78
Josef Suk (violon), Josef Hala. 1956

Sonate pour violon et piano no 2 en la majeur op. 100
Adolf Busch (violon), Rudolf Serkin (piano). 1932

Sonate pour violon et piano no 3 en ré mineur op. 108
Gioconda De Vito (violon), Edwin Fischer (piano). 1954

Scherzo en ut mineur WoO 2 (de la Sonate "F.A.E."
Nathan Milstein (violon), Carlo Bussotti (piano). 1954

BONUS
Regenlied op. 59 no 3
Elisabeth Grümmer (soprano), Gerald Moore (piano). 1959

Wie Melodien zieht es mir
Immer leiser wird mein Schlummer
Lisa Della Casa (soprano), Karl Hudez (piano). 1952

Auf dem Kirchhofe
Lotte Lehmann (soprano), Paul Ulanowsky (piano). 1941

CD2
Sonate pour violoncelle et piano no 1 en mi mineur op. 38
Gregor Piatigorsky (violoncelle), Arthur Rubinstein (piano). 1936
Janos Starker (violoncelle), György Sebök (piano). 1959

Sonate pour violoncelle et piano no 2 en fa majeur op. 99
Janos Starker (violoncelle), György Sebök (piano). 1959

CD3
Sonate pour clarinette et piano no 1 en fa mineur op. 120 no 1
Sonate pour clarinette et piano no 2 en mi bémol majeur op. 120 no 2
Reginald Kell (clarinette), Mieczyslaw Horszowski (piano). 1949

Sonate pour alto et piano no 1 en fa mineur op. 120 no 1
William Primrose (alto), Jesus Maria Sanroma (piano). 1939
Sonate pour alto et piano no 2 en mi bémol majeur op. 120 no 2
William Primrose (alto), Rudolf Firkusny (piano). 1958

CD4
Quintette pour clarinette et cordes en si mineur op. 115
Leopod Wlach (clarinette), Wiener Konzerthaus Quartett. 1953

Trio pour clarinette, violoncelle et piano en la mineur op. 114
Reginald Kell (clarinette), Frank Miller (violoncelle), Mieczyslaw Horszowski
   (piano). 1950

CD5
Trio pour piano, violon et violoncelle no 1 en si majeur op. 8
Edwin Fischer (piano), Wolfgang Schneiderhan (violon), Enrico Mainardi
   (violoncelle). 1954

Trio pour piano, violon et violoncelle no 2 en ut majeur op. 87
Gary Graffman (piano), Berl Senofsky (violon), Shirley Trepel (violoncelle).
   1959

BONUS
Sonate pour violon et piano no 2 en la majeur op. 100
Szymon Goldberg (violon), Artur Balsam (piano). 1953

CD6
Trio pour piano, violon et violoncelle no 3 en ut mineur op. 101
Eugene Istomin (piano), Isaac Stern (violon), Leonard Rose (violoncelle). 1966

Trio pour piano, violon et cor en mi bémol majeur op. 40
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Michael Tree (violon), Myron Bloom (cor). 1960
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Adolf Busch (violon), Audrey Brain (cor). 1933

CD7
Quatuor à cordes no 1 en ut mineur op. 51 no 1
Quatuor Amadeus. 1959

Quatuor à cordes no 2 en la mineur op. 51 no 2
Quatuor de Hollywood. 1952

CD8
Quatuor à cordes no 3 en si bémol majeur op. 67
Quatuor de Budapest. 1933

Quintette pour piano et cordes en fa mineur op. 34
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Quatuor Busch. 1938

CD9
Quatuor pour piano et cordes no 1 en sol mineur op. 25
Rudolf Serkin (piano), Quatuor Busch. 1949
Arthur Rubinstein (piano), Quatuor Pro Arte. 1932

CD10
Quatuor pour piano et cordes no 2 en la majeur op. 26
Clifford Curzon (piano), Quatuor de Budapest. 1952

Quatuor pour piano et cordes no 3 en ut mineur op. 60
Arthur Rubinstein (piano), Quatuor Guarneri. 1967

CD11
Quintette à cordes no 1 en fa majeur op. 88
Quatuor de Budapest, Alfred Hobday (alto). 1937

Quintette à cordes no 2 en sol majeur op. 111
Quatuor de Budapest, Hans Mahlke (alto). 1932

BONUS
Sonate pour violon et piano no 3 en ré mineur op. 108
Joseph Szigeti (violon), Egon Petri (piano). 1935

CD12
Sextuor à cordes no 1 en si bémol majeur op. 18
Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields Chamber Ensemble. 1992

Sextuor à cordes no 2 en sol majeur op. 36
Pina Carmirelli, Jon Toth (violons), Caroline Levine, Philipp Naegele (altos),
   Dorothy Reichenberger, Fortunato Arico (violoncelles). 1967

Thank you very much for the response and the information  :)
The ability to talk comes with knowledge. The ability to listen comes with wisdom.

Offline George

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #334 on: February 05, 2017, 02:29:40 PM »
Because I could not quite decide yet on the Naxos historicals and my Brahms chamber shelf is, while well stocked, not quite as crowded as some others and this is a save spacing box, I ordered the following. I already own recordings involving the Busch's and Rubinstein from the respective collections but I figured that at bargain price there were enough recordings left that are not easy to get separately and are supposedly very good. (I also sometimes think that Brahms, more than Beethoven or Mozart, is a composer where the older generations of musicians tend to have an edge over contemporary ones.)



Please let us know how the transfers are when you set arrives?
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Offline Jo498

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #335 on: February 05, 2017, 02:41:06 PM »
I cannot guarantee that I find the time for comparisons but as already mentioned I have all the items involving Rubinstein or the Busches in the big Rubinstein and the A. Busch/Busch Qt. box respectively, so I could check if these sound better/different.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline George

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #336 on: February 05, 2017, 03:27:39 PM »
I cannot guarantee that I find the time for comparisons but as already mentioned I have all the items involving Rubinstein or the Busches in the big Rubinstein and the A. Busch/Busch Qt. box respectively, so I could check if these sound better/different.

All I would need to know if if you hear a good amount of surface noise throughout. I hate overfiltered historical recordings.
"I can't live without music, because music is life." - Yvonne Lefébure

Offline Jo498

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #337 on: February 06, 2017, 01:17:23 AM »
you can listen to snippets at German amazon or jpc.de. In my impression there is some filtering but it is hard to tell from the snippets whether it is problematic. The simple point is, though, that it is to be doubted that there are easily available better transfers of e.g. pre-war Budapest Q opp.67, 88, 111, or the Fischer/Mainardi op.8 etc.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Jo498

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #338 on: February 08, 2017, 02:33:22 AM »
I received the box. As expected, it is quite minimalist - the booklet is French only with personal commentaries by the Diapason critics who apparently picked the recordings (unfortunately I do not really read enough French to get the finer points). Only the newest recordings (opp.60,101 and the sextets) are with kind permission from the original labels.
The others are "uncredited" except for transfers and remastering "Isabelle Davy, Circé" (a recording/mixing/mastering studio in Paris).
I have not yet done comparisons or headphone listening but the level of surface noise/filtering seems to be not uniform. The Busch/Serkin op.100 is much quieter than the early e minor cello sonata with Piatigorsky/Rubinstein.

So if someone is a completist one would want to get e.g. the violin sonatas complete with De Vito and Goldberg on Testament. And if wants the absolutely best transfers this set might not be the first choice. Of course it is questionable if one will find some of the recordings at all (e.g. the prewar Budapest opp. 67,88,111) and in a better transfer (for some stuff, e.g. Suk/Hala violin sonatas there are cheap downloads). And the set is the price of less than two Testament discs and about 3-4 Naxos discs.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

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Re: Brahms Chamber Music
« Reply #339 on: December 25, 2017, 11:58:05 AM »

Thanks to amw's recommendation, I've added this version to my favorites list of Op 51 No 1 String Quartet. It's hard to find any faults to the recent Artemis (hi-res), Ebene and Leipziger recordings of which I've been trying recently, too, but this middle-period Beethoven killer of a composition seems to thrlve at the hands of Belcea, maybe thanks to their serious approach to its "minor-key mood".
Piece of cake.