Topic: The five myths about contemporary classical music

[James]

I was just about to offer the question of, "What did the those who's music was labeled as atonal think of the term?"

"I am a musician and have nothing to do with things atonal. The word "atonal" could only signify something entirely inconsistent with the nature of tone ... to call any relation of tones atonal is just as farfetched as it would be to designate a relation of colors aspectral or acomplementary. There is no such antithesis"  - Arnold Schoenberg

His preferred term was pantonal, which is far better.

[drogulus]

It's never a fungus my friend .. it's empowering and only deepens one's appreciation & understanding of the art and what is possible. (widening ears, perception; a good thing) With regards to improper descriptions like "atonal" etc. .. you may know what it means; but the fact is most people don't .. it's lazy thinking & inaccurate and is 9 times out of 10 a reflection of inexperience. Schoenberg himself loathed the stupid term.

     Well, you can shift the debate to terms but the point remains that the fashion for certain types of noisemusic or musicnoise has come and gone without IMO proving very much other than that fashion and art combine in odd ways, and people get very cultish about it. There no real need to invent justifications for sorely unmissed music. If you like it, that ought to be enough.

[James]

Well, you can shift the debate to terms but the point remains that the fashion for certain types of noisemusic or musicnoise has come and gone without IMO proving very much other than that fashion and art combine in odd ways, and people get very cultish about it. There no real need to invent justifications for sorely unmissed music. If you like it, that ought to be enough.

Not shifting, just providing clarity on a common misconception which fits right into this whole myths thing; it has nothing to do with fashions, cults, noise this, or noise that. I have no idea where you're coming up with that. For those in tune, no justifications are necessary  .. they know the music's broad impact & immense diversity (perhaps the most diverse in history). Fact is, contemporary composers are FAR from being ignored .. and we're already seeing many of the really important works by preeminent composers of the 2nd half of the last century entering the standard repertoire. There are more and more performances of this music year after year. It's not going away any time soon. And there is more demand for more challenging forms of art, of course ..

[Polednice]

We can't be all encompassing in our replies .. but yes, I am fully aware music is much wider in terms of frequencies relative-to etc. For me, when I see folks throwing around words like atonal etc. in an almost irrational way (prejudice) it often reflects that they really haven't looked into things much (inexperience) to get clarity on these myths & misunderstandings. And there is definitely room for perception to grow immensely, one of the key pts. in Service's article .. something I've experienced first-hand myself.

You're certainly right that people use the word "atonal" much too broadly, encompassing not only strict dodecaphonic serialism, but also many other styles - maybe even just anything that they dislike or can't comprehend. The antidote to these misinformed generalisations, however, is probably not an opposite but similarly generalised definition.

[Scion7]

It's never a fungus my friend ..

That's a viewpoint totally determined by taste.

[James]

That's a viewpoint totally determined by taste.

I honestly don't think aquiring more knowledge, being open to challenges, while widening perception and stretching one's ears along the way in this passionate pursuit has anything to do with just "taste", my friend.

[albedo]

would it be a fair critique that modern composers usually don't give brass and woodwinds much work to do?


Or that modern cinema doesn't like music that competes with the screen and $million dollar voices or faces, and has squeezed the epic out of composers? does anyone still say '100 voice choir because...I said so'?


http://www.nats.org/home/38-general/400-journal-of-singing-feature-article-economy-of-choir-size.html


i am not very knowledgable in modern orchestral composition so I cannot really levy any critique at all. I do hope we aren't talking about soundtracks however.

[eyeresist]

Funny how Schoenberg is still "contemporary".

There is some good new stuff amongst the academic dreck, but the time and money you need to spend to find it isn't worth it, from my point of view. Especially as there's so much "old" music I haven't heard yet.

[DavidW]

would it be a fair critique that modern composers usually don't give brass and woodwinds much work to do?

No because it's untrue.

[Sequentia]

Contemporary classical music is devoid of melody and appeal,
all noise and no fun. At least, that's the cliche. But this is music
that is very much at the heart of our modern world.

Tom Service
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 26 April 2012 20.00 BST
Article history


A scene from English National Opera's 2009 production of György Ligeti's Le Grand Macabre.
Photograph: Tristram Kenton for the Guardian

1. It all sounds like a squeaky gate

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2. It's inaccessible

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3. You need to have a beard and wear a black polo-neck jumper to appreciate it

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4. It's irrelevant

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5. It's written for classical musicians so it must be 'old'

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* What are the composers' favourites? Mark-Anthony Turnage, Anna
Meredith and more tell us the contemporary work they couldn't live
without.

Sounds like the average criticism of "Mousard".

[Sequentia]

People are just getting dumber and dumber. The time for civility is over. No one should criticize shit (anything) anymore; they can all go to where they're comfortable, and STFU, and listen to their Strauss, and leave others alone.

If anyone EVER,... if they happened to hear what's coming from the car audio,... if they ever even DARE to give me 'that' look,... wow, just try it buddy,... I have no patience for the 'why do you play something nice?', or the 'that sounds like shit',... you know, why don't you just turn yellow and die?? Trust me, it's 2012, the time for winking at idiots is over. Fuck 'em all,... dingy consumerists.

May ALL have war enough to be able to appreciate the sounds of war in Xenakis, for instance.


'Drop the bomb. Exterminate them all' (Apocalypse Now)


ok, to all you people calm down snyprrr, calm down, it's only Saturday morning, it's only a Classical Music forum, it's only a movie, it's only a movie...


ahhhh,... I neeeed to stay away from the controversy,.... ahhh, soothing balm of Gilead,.... there, there....

I agree. Let's celebrate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoRgo5_kzgA

[Sequentia]

I believe we're way past this now, snyprrr. Even my Dad likes Contemporary classical music! I introduced him to Takemitsu, Part, and Salonen (the composer, he already knew the conductor ) and he's loving every minute of it!

Is that really contemporary classical music?

[Sequentia]

Funny how Schoenberg is still "contemporary".

Not "funny", but certainly "irritating", and ultimately "disappointing". In 2548, people will say, "this is the most recent classical music," and proceed to play Mahler's 9th.

[Leon]

I honestly don't think aquiring more knowledge, being open to challenges, while widening perception and stretching one's ears along the way in this passionate pursuit has anything to do with just "taste", my friend.

Nor does it follow that possessing those qualities will guarantee that someone will like how contemporary music sounds. 

I've spent a majority of my life listening to and studying new music and while there are some composers (Carter, Boulez are two) whose music I can admit an appreciation for, I do not enjoy listening to it anywhere as much as any work by Haydn, and countless other "old" music composers.  And there are many more new music composers whose music is of absolutely no interest to me whatsoever.

I fail to see why the issue of whether more people enjoy it or not is the subject of debate.  People gravitate to the music they like more than other music.  Many people like Mahler, I don't.  Many people like Wagner, I don't.  I love Haydn and Mozart, many people find them boring.  The same is true for 20th and now 21st century music.

Perfectly natural state of affairs, IMO.

 

[Mirror Image]

Nor does it follow that possessing those qualities will guarantee that someone will like how contemporary music sounds. 

I've spent a majority of my life listening to and studying new music and while there are some composers (Carter, Boulez are two) whose music I can admit an appreciation for, I do not enjoy listening to it anywhere as much as any work by Haydn, and countless other "old" music composers.  And there are many more new music composers whose music is of absolutely no interest to me whatsoever.

I fail to see why the issue of whether more people enjoy it or not is the subject of debate.  People gravitate to the music they like more than other music.  Many people like Mahler, I don't.  Many people like Wagner, I don't.  I love Haydn and Mozart, many people find them boring.  The same is true for 20th and now 21st century music.

Perfectly natural state of affairs, IMO.

 

Well said, Arnold. My sentiments exactly. People like what they like. That's all there is to it.

[Philoctetes]

Is that really contemporary classical music?

What is this supposed to mean? They're all alive. Composing classical music. Therefore etc.

[James]

Nor does it follow that possessing those qualities will guarantee that someone will like how contemporary music sounds.

There is bound to be something for everyone .. of course not everything will be liked but going through the process of discovery, of exploring and learning along the way is never a bad thing (aka fungus) .. that's what I'm saying.

[PaulSC]

What is this supposed to mean? They're all alive. Composing classical music. Therefore etc.

Well, Takemitsu is no longer alive, but he was until fairly recently. It's totally uncontroversial to call the music of all three “contemporary classical music.”

[Philoctetes]

Well, Takemitsu is no longer alive, but he was until fairly recently. It's totally uncontroversial to call the music of all three “contemporary classical music.”

Okay, I didn't know that. Thanks for the correction, but they've all been alive recently, and at least two of them are still alive composing. That would make them contemporary in my estimation.

[James]

Not "funny", but certainly "irritating", and ultimately "disappointing". In 2548, people will say, "this is the most recent classical music," and proceed to play Mahler's 9th.

No one here really said Schoenberg was contemporary .. he was only used to clear up a common misconception that extends to contemporary music in general; eyeresist didn't follow .. spitting out a common cliche too .. that it's mainly all "academic dreck" ..and also stating that spending time learning about the music of recent history is a "waste of time" ..