Author Topic: German Baroque Music  (Read 54478 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10063
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
German Baroque Music
« on: July 08, 2007, 11:09:09 PM »
Here is a thread to discuss works by other composers of the German baroque than Bach.

Recommendations - queries - discussions.

Btw, "German" in the title of this thread means that I'm refering to all baroque composers from the Germanic Empire (or Holy Roman Empire) and/including Bohemia.
Oh, and yes, and I assume someone will give Georg Friedrich Händel his own thread! 8)

Several composers come to mind:

Composers linked to a site specially dedicated to them, are indicated in bold.
BTW I'll continously update the list of composers, and will add links to websites on them - if anyone knows interesting sites, please PM them to me!

Thanks! :)
« Last Edit: October 05, 2007, 12:59:37 AM by Que »
À chacun son goût.

Online The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11199
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2007, 11:27:46 PM »
Erlebach, Kuhnau, Knupfer, Pachelbel, Rosenmuller, to mention only a few others represented in my collection and who has written works I've enjoyed.

Online Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10063
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2007, 11:44:42 PM »
I'll do the kick off with a post on Heinrich Ignaz von Biber.

A really superb composer and a real eye opener for me. His music is virtuosic, very imaginative and idiosyncratic  - hypnotic stuff. Anything but dull - he's downright wild!   ;D

Some favourites - but I need recommendations myself, especially on his vocal/choral music!
Andrew Manze excels in Biber IMO - invigorating.




Chamber music by The Rare Fruits Council - an appropriate name for this very adventurous music!  8)

                  samples here

Q
À chacun son goût.

Online Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10063
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2007, 11:47:40 PM »
Erlebach, Kuhnau, Knupfer, Pachelbel, Rosenmuller, to mention only a few others represented in my collection and who has written works I've enjoyed.

That demonstrates how much there is to discover - did not hear of Erlebach before!  :)

Favourite works & recordings on any of those?

Q
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 12:22:47 AM by Que »
À chacun son goût.

Online The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11199
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2007, 12:17:26 AM »
I'll try to come bach on this - I'm at work now!

And don't forget Westhoff, Fischer and several Walthers!   ;D

M forever

  • Guest
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2007, 02:02:08 AM »
Well, strictly speaking, Zelenka was not German, he was a Czech Bohemian (which means that he did not come from any of the states of the Holy Roman Empire of German nation either because Bohemia, while part of the territories ruled over by the Emperor in Vienna who also presided over the German states, was not part of that), but he spent most of his artistic life in Dresden, and he also studied in Vienna, so his work can not be looked at separated from that of his German contemporaries and colleagues.

Zelenka composed a number of highly interesting works. Among my favorites are the trio sonatas for oboes and basso continuo which I have all played a number of times. They have also been recorded numerous times. I particularly like these:



The one on the left features Goritzki and Glaetzner, the one one the right Holliger and Bourgue. Both are on modern instruments, Holliger/Bourgue more "modern" in style while Goritzki/Glaetzner incorporate "HIP" elements in a very intelligent and stylish way in the way it can also be heard from the Neues Bachisches Collegium Musicum Leipzig under Pommer from this period (and the accompanying musicians come from that environment, too).
Oboe players love these works because they are very inventive and demanding in their use of the instrument. Zelenka was a bass (or violone as it was usually called then) player and that is reflected in the interesting bass parts, too.

Dresden, then as now was one of the most important musical centers in Germany, musicians enjoyed excellent working conditions and the Hofkapelle (which still exists today in the form of the Staatskapelle) was renowned all over Europe. Vivaldi also wrote concertos for them. Zelenka's colleague, Johann Adolf Hasse who I believe has not been mentioned here yet, was one of the most celebrated composer of operas in the Italian style during that time.
Here is an interesting article about music in Dresden in that period.
Hasse had succeeded Heinichen as Hofkapellmeister. These are great albums of their music:


Other important German composers of the time not yet mentioned were Johann Joachim Quantz and Carl Heinrich Graun who both worked at the court of the king of Prussia, Frederick II ("the Great") who played the flute and indeed also composed himself. We are getting more into the late baroque era here, but there are no strict "borders" between "high baroque" and later styles anyway.

Online The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11199
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2007, 03:28:50 AM »
The Hasse/Goebel looks very interesting and right up my alley....unfortunately it seems to be OOP.

re the ECM -there's an ECM offer on mdt currently. I have the older Archiv/Holliger recordings of Zelenka, but is open for more recent stuff, the Archiv sets were on modern instruments I think.

M forever

  • Guest
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2007, 03:50:40 AM »
I think the older Holliger recording on Archiv was on "modern" instruments as well (I don't think I have ever heard of him playing on period instruments). So is the Goritzki/Glaetzner, but it is extremely stylish and incorporates "HIP" insights intelligently and seamlessly into a very attractive "modern" style. My first recommendation for these great pieces.

The Goebel disc is scheduled for re-release by DG later this year, in case you can't find a used copy.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 03:54:28 AM by M forever »

Offline val

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2090
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2007, 03:52:53 AM »
Regarding vocal and choral music, Schütz is to me the greatest German composer before Bach (and Händel). The Psalms of David, the Symphoniae Sacrae, the Geistliche Chormusik, among other masterpieces, are wonderful.

Regarding the organ, Buxtehude and Bruhns are my favorites, in special their Preludes and Fugues. Lübeck has good works, but perhaps more superficial.

In the harpsichord, Froberger seems to me the greatest German composer before Bach. His Lamentations on the death of Blancrocher and Ferdinand III are strange but how impressive works.

In the orchestral music, Telemann. He was a great, very great composer. He composed too much, and sometimes the works are not inspired. But when they are (just as an example, I would mention the Suite in A minor or the Concerto in E minor for recorder and transverse flute, or the 12 Fantasies for flute solo), Telemann is not inferior to Händel's instrumental music. At least, this is my opinion.

Offline 71 dB

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • I free-think, therefore I am free
  • Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2007, 04:04:13 AM »
Excellent thread Que!

I am a fan of most of these composers but I am not familiar with all of them. I don't have music (yet) from Abel, Heinichen, Froberger, Pisendel, Zelenka and Knüpfer.

These two mighty composers haven't been mentioned yet

Matthias Weckmann (c. 1616-1674)
Franz Tunder (1614-1667)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening. Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural and less tiresome in headphone listening.

Offline 71 dB

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • I free-think, therefore I am free
  • Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2007, 04:07:46 AM »
There is a composer named Lübeck? I didn't know that.

See, you don't know everything. I did know this composer existed and someday I will buy his music.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 04:09:42 AM by 71 dB »
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening. Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural and less tiresome in headphone listening.

M forever

  • Guest
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2007, 04:12:02 AM »
See, you don't know everything.

And neither did I ever claim I do. In fact, didn't I just say a day or so ago that I probably don't know 99% of the music out there? The difference here is that I know what I know and understand and what I don't know and don't understand, and you know very little and understand even less, but you don't know that you understand very little. Which is your loss. You have no idea what you closed mind is prohibiting you from seeing. But again, you loss. And a little bit our loss, unfortunately, as you proudly keep spamming these forums with irrelevant random nosense.

Online The new erato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 11199
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2007, 04:14:43 AM »
Regarding vocal and choral music, Schütz is to me the greatest German composer before Bach (and Händel). The Psalms of David, the Symphoniae Sacrae, the Geistliche Chormusik, among other masterpieces, are wonderful.


Totally agree.

And then you have Schein, Scheidt and Scheidemann. Scheins Israels Brunnlein, a series of madrigals over spiritual texts, is a very fine work.

Offline 71 dB

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • I free-think, therefore I am free
  • Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2007, 04:24:43 AM »
And neither did I ever claim I do. In fact, didn't I just say a day or so ago that I probably don't know 99% of the music out there? The difference here is that I know what I know and understand and what I don't know and don't understand, and you know very little and understand even less, but you don't know that you understand very little. Which is your loss. You have no idea what you closed mind is prohibiting you from seeing. But again, you loss. And a little bit our loss, unfortunately, as you proudly keep spamming these forums with irrelevant random nosense.

It's good you know your own limits. I know mine but why do you belittle people whose knowledge differs from yours? You know perhaps a lot about how Brahms used brass instruments but perhaps I have a better insight of German middle baroque? I mean, you were reading Brahms' scores while I was listening to Weckmann's organ works. I am an acoustics engineer. My education includes very little of music theory (some due to the acoustics of musical instruments). I don't have the skills to read scores like musically educated people do, I haven't even tried much. So, for a person without musical education I think I have a very large and deep knowledge about classical music (and some other forms of music too). That's why it pisses me off when people belittle me in this issue.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening. Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural and less tiresome in headphone listening.

Offline 71 dB

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • I free-think, therefore I am free
  • Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2007, 04:26:33 AM »
Regarding vocal and choral music, Schütz is to me the greatest German composer before Bach (and Händel). The Psalms of David, the Symphoniae Sacrae, the Geistliche Chormusik, among other masterpieces, are wonderful.

Wonderful indeed but I still rank Buxtehude the greatest German composer before Bach.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening. Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural and less tiresome in headphone listening.

Offline 71 dB

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • I free-think, therefore I am free
  • Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2007, 04:30:05 AM »
In the orchestral music, Telemann. He was a great, very great composer. He composed too much, and sometimes the works are not inspired. But when they are (just as an example, I would mention the Suite in A minor or the Concerto in E minor for recorder and transverse flute, or the 12 Fantasies for flute solo), Telemann is not inferior to Händel's instrumental music. At least, this is my opinion.

Val, have you heard Fasch's orchestral music? Gotta love his concertos for chalumeau.  8)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening. Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural and less tiresome in headphone listening.

Offline Sergeant Rock

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17359
  • Location: Wine Country Germany
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2007, 04:32:21 AM »
Well, strictly speaking, Zelenka was not German, he was a Czech Bohemian (which means that he did not come from any of the states of the Holy Roman Empire of German nation either because Bohemia, while part of the territories ruled over by the Emperor in Vienna who also presided over the German states, was not part of that

Bohemia was certainly part of the Holy Roman Empire. The King of Bohemia was even one of the Electors! Here's a map of the Empire, 1786




Sarge
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 04:34:52 AM by Sergeant Rock »
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline Soundproof

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 153
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2007, 04:34:23 AM »
I was in my car on the late afternoon of June 10th, this year, when I was exposed to von Biber. A programme where they played his Christi Himmelfahrt, sonate in C-dur with Musica Antiqua Köln; Missa Bruxellensis under Jordi Savall and the La Capella Reial de Catalunya; and to top it off (!) Sonata Representativa, with Romanesca playing.

As I had never heard his music before, we drove to a nice look-out point, shut off the engine, turned up the volume and had a wonderful hour of music.
I'm not completely ignorant of the era but will be plucking suggestions off the thread. That radio transmission was wonderful because it exposed me to music that seemed familiar, while being anything but. I understood from the radio commentary that there has been a strong rebirth of interest in Germany in these composers?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 04:36:22 AM by Soundproof »

Online Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 10063
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2007, 04:37:12 AM »
Bohemia was certainly part of the Holy Roman Empire.

Well, whatever the historical circumstances, it was my intention to include Bohemian baroque composers for the purpose of this thread. I hope we all can live with that.  ;)

Q
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 10:23:38 PM by Que »
À chacun son goût.

M forever

  • Guest
Re: German Baroque Music
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2007, 04:42:10 AM »
Well, whatever the historical circumstances, it was my intention to include Bohemian baroque composers for the purpose of this thread. I hope we all can live with that.  ;)

You are right, especially because we are talking about a continuous cultural sphere which extended over political or language boundaries (Zelenka is a good example for that). But it is such a fascinating and complex subject, even though it is ver confusing sometimes because political configurations changed all the time and were often so complicated that it takes a long time to figure out what exactly was going on. We learned a lot about that in school, and I have spent a lot of time reading about it, but I still get confused by aspects of the long and compicated history of the Holy Roman Empire.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 04:41:22 AM by Que »

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK