Author Topic: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.  (Read 10280 times)

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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2018, 12:29:52 PM »



Obrecht's music is normally very harmonically interesting - when the different voices interact in the canons you get nice expressive harmonies. My impression is that this aspect is a bit lost in this performance of Missa Grecorum, because it's too blended, blended in a way which makes more consonance than there should be! It's also articulated in a rather fluid way, and I'm not so sure that's the best way to bring out the music's tension and drama.  Theres some sweet music in there, but it leaves me a bit unsatisfied at the moment. I've read that the mass comes from the same period as Missa Rosa Playsante, and Sound and Fury's recording of that has all the qualities which Brabant Ensemble's Missa Grecorum doesn't have. Maybe it has redeeming features, there are certainly some gorgeous moments - the opening kyrie is lovely, for example. I need to live with it a bit longer but I thought I'd make this post in case anyone else has tried it.

There seem to be more singers than necessary to me, and there's no real sense of any of them as individuals.

I haven't heard the motets yet.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:39:44 PM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2018, 12:45:34 PM »


I had a listen to Schmelzer's Si Dedero (Agricola) last week. It's horrible. He's put in  some instrumental music which nearly drowns out the voices!
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kishnevi

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #42 on: January 08, 2018, 07:30:19 PM »



Obrecht's music is normally very harmonically interesting - when the different voices interact in the canons you get nice expressive harmonies. My impression is that this aspect is a bit lost in this performance of Missa Grecorum, because it's too blended, blended in a way which makes more consonance than there should be! It's also articulated in a rather fluid way, and I'm not so sure that's the best way to bring out the music's tension and drama.  Theres some sweet music in there, but it leaves me a bit unsatisfied at the moment. I've read that the mass comes from the same period as Missa Rosa Playsante, and Sound and Fury's recording of that has all the qualities which Brabant Ensemble's Missa Grecorum doesn't have. Maybe it has redeeming features, there are certainly some gorgeous moments - the opening kyrie is lovely, for example. I need to live with it a bit longer but I thought I'd make this post in case anyone else has tried it.

There seem to be more singers than necessary to me, and there's no real sense of any of them as individuals.

I haven't heard the motets yet.

The copy I ordered is on its way to me.  I'll see if my ears concur with yours when it arrives.

kishnevi

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2018, 07:46:02 PM »



Obrecht's music is normally very harmonically interesting - when the different voices interact in the canons you get nice expressive harmonies. My impression is that this aspect is a bit lost in this performance of Missa Grecorum, because it's too blended, blended in a way which makes more consonance than there should be! It's also articulated in a rather fluid way, and I'm not so sure that's the best way to bring out the music's tension and drama.  Theres some sweet music in there, but it leaves me a bit unsatisfied at the moment. I've read that the mass comes from the same period as Missa Rosa Playsante, and Sound and Fury's recording of that has all the qualities which Brabant Ensemble's Missa Grecorum doesn't have. Maybe it has redeeming features, there are certainly some gorgeous moments - the opening kyrie is lovely, for example. I need to live with it a bit longer but I thought I'd make this post in case anyone else has tried it.

There seem to be more singers than necessary to me, and there's no real sense of any of them as individuals.

I haven't heard the motets yet.

Now giving this CD a second listen.

I think you are right about the blending and fluidity of articulation.

But I think I'm more positive about it, meaning I like the results--or at least like it more than your post suggests you did. But the performance style you thought you heard I also heard.

Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #44 on: May 04, 2018, 01:02:40 AM »
Now giving this CD a second listen.

I think you are right about the blending and fluidity of articulation.

But I think I'm more positive about it, meaning I like the results--or at least like it more than your post suggests you did. But the performance style you thought you heard I also heard.

Yes and revisiting this this week I feel much more positive about what they do - I'm glad to have it. Some of the motets especially are impressive. In the past I was focussing too much on the mass. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 01:22:36 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2018, 09:40:51 AM »


A good performance of the Salve regina a6 here

« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 10:16:53 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2018, 12:36:20 PM »


The motets here on this Isaac CD are absolutely fabulous, maybe the best thing I’ve heard Tallis Scholars do, certainly one of them - strong and very grand. I made a comment somewhere the other day that Tallis Scholars would be nothing without their sopranos, well some of these motets prove that to be false - in some of them the male voices dominate and they acquit themselves superbly. 
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #47 on: March 07, 2019, 12:05:50 PM »


The motets here on this Isaac CD are absolutely fabulous, maybe the best thing I’ve heard Tallis Scholars do, certainly one of them - strong and very grand. I made a comment somewhere the other day that Tallis Scholars would be nothing without their sopranos, well some of these motets prove that to be false - in some of them the male voices dominate and they acquit themselves superbly.

And now I'm listening to the mass, which seems to me also exceptional both in terms of music and performance.

Someone wrote a knocking review of it on amazon.com, saying that they sing too slowly and that the lower parts are inexpressive, but both those points seem wrong to me. Go figure!
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2019, 12:25:17 PM »


The thing I want to say about this is that it's a fabulous mass, recorded elsewhere but Hilliard sing it particularly well, not least because of David James. What makes this recording come off the page so splendidly isn't just that they're on top form, it's that the mass singing is supported by a trumpet. This was  how an Easter mass like this would have been performed, there is an account of Easter masses being performed with trumpets in St Peters in 1554, for example (In Iain Fenlon (Editor), The Renaissance: From the 1470s to the end of the 16th century (Man & Music) (Pagrave 1989))

I'm not sure where the trumpet music comes from, whether there's an extra part in the manuscript.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 02:21:17 PM by Mandryka »
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2019, 01:14:22 AM »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/AhbzJoav7i0" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/AhbzJoav7i0</a>

Obrecht L'homme Arme, Cantus Modalis
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Jacob Obrecht, Alexander Agricola & Heinrich Isaac.
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2019, 11:48:26 AM »



1. They drive the music forward, especially on Maria Zart. And it’s loud and proud.
2. In Missa Fortuna Desperata they’re not very expressive.
3. Good booklet essay
4. OVPP - I’m not sure whether I think that’s a good idea or not here
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 11:58:12 AM by Mandryka »
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