Beethoven Symphonies Cycle: Which is your #1 pick?

[xochitl]

i gotta say: just heard salonen/LAPO's [live] 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th and i've never been so uncritical of a beethoven orchestral performance, EVER!

they make my heart and brain flutter with joy equally.

BALANCE!

[Peter Power Pop]

Just listening to Mackerras/Scottish #2, one of my favorite Seconds, on my fancy headphones. 8:48-49 in the first movement there's an electronic jangle in the right channel like somebody got a text message. I guess they are live performances - not that you'd know from the great playing!

Wow! Thanks for noticing that, Brian.

I'm an enthusiastic noticer of anomalies (I have a text file full of instances of recorded mistakes and oddities in classical music – call me Pedantic Pete), but I didn't spot that one. However, there is a mistake in the Mackerras / Scottish Chamber Orchestra set I did spot. In the fourth movement of the Pastoral (Thunderstorm, CD 3 track 8 ) there's a cracked note from a horn at 0:29 in the right channel. It's the only mistake I've heard in that set.

By the way, that Mackerras set is one of my favourites. It's so full of life.

As for overall favourites, at the moment it's:

• Leibowitz
• Immerseel
• Blomstedt
• Brüggen I*
• Mackerras

That list may change depending on: a) other sets I hear; and b) what kind of Beethoven I'm in the mood for at any given moment.

But if asked to name only one set (which is exactly what this thread asked), it'd be Leibowitz.

Incidentally, I'm currently listening to the Harnoncourt set again (I'm now up to the Eroica). It's been ages since I last heard this set. Although I'm enjoying it one more time, I must admit that I'm liking it a little less than the previous six times I heard it (possibly because I've heard more Beethoven symphony sets since then).

Oh-oh... I just heard a mistake in Harnoncourt's Eroica. In the first movement there's a cracked note from a horn when things get rowdy at 2:00.

And in the time it took me to the type the above, I just heard another mistake. Near the end of the first movement of the Eroica a horn in the left channel plays a nice'n'loud mistake at 15:19.

(*Although I adore Frans Brüggen's conducting – especially in Rameau – his second Beethoven set is a bit too stodgy for me.)

[Peter Power Pop]

OK, since my last post (see above) I've listened to a few more Beethoven symphony cycles (and revisited a few of the ones I'm already familiar with), and my ever-changing list has changed (again).

I wanted to post a newer version of this perpetually (and pointlessly) updated list because I've now heard the Cluytens set. I think it's wonderful.

The Top 5 is now:

• Cluytens
• Leibowitz
• Blomstedt
• Immerseel
• Mackerras (Scottish Chamber Orchestra)
• Brüggen (1995)

By the way, these are the sets I've heard (so far):

• Blomstedt
• Böhm
• Brüggen (1995)
• Brüggen (2012)
• Chailly
• Cluytens
• Gardiner
• Harnoncourt
• Immerseel
• Järvi
• Karajan (1963)
• Krivine
• Leibowitz
• Mackerras (2007)
• Muti
• Vänskä
• Wand
• Zinman

I fully intend to listen to every set ever released.

[George]

Can you say what you liked about the Cluytens, PPP?

[Ken B]

Can you say what you liked about the Cluytens, PPP?

It s one of my favourites too. It's big Beethoven, big big. Beethoven storms heaven kicking butt and taking names. Out of favour these days but very effective.

[Peter Power Pop]

Can you say what you liked about the Cluytens, PPP?

Well, I can certainly give it a go.

I'll just mention a few things that stand out for me without going into specifics. (I can if you want, but that would make this post horrendously long. This Amazon.com review is much more comprehensive than anything I could come up with.)

Cluytens' is big-band Beethoven, but there's nothing turgid, or lumbering, or imposing about it.

In pacing the symphonies the way he does, Cluytens allows the music to breathe. Unlike most of the newer, period-influenced cycles, in which it seems to be a race to the finish ("Ha ha! My version's faster than yours!"), Cluytens gives you time to hear all the details. But he doesn't linger.

What sets this cycle apart from others is that he does what he does so musically. With Cluytens, there's a lightness to it – all of it.

Speaking of all of it, I found the consistency of this set surprising. It isn't a cycle of the symphonies in which you'd say, "Oh, this set is great except for...".

I love the instrumental balance throughout. Cluytens doesn't highlight one section of the orchestra to the detriment of the others (e.g., the strings overpowering everything else).

I also like the recording quality. It's nowhere near as great as what can be achieved nowadays, but I think the sound is as good as you can get for recordings from 1957-1960. I actually think the recording quality suits the temperament of the music.

I must admit that I'm impressed by the technical accomplishments of the more recent sets (e.g., Järvi, Vänskä, Chailly, Zinman et al) – but "impressed by" is not the same as "live with".

Up until I heard the Cluytens, Leibowitz's cycle was my favourite. There's something special about Leibowitz's approach to the symphonies. But this set from Cluytens is even more special.

Oh, and Cluytens' 9th was the first version to make me cry.

By the way, the release I have is from 2006 – this one:



It was re-released in 2013:



Now, if you want to hear what I've been talking about, you can thanks to the wonders of YouTube:

• André Cluytens conducts Beethoven

Or the works individually:

• Symphony No. 1 in C major, Op. 21
• Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 36
• Symphony No. 3 in E flat major, Op. 55 "Eroica"
• Symphony No. 4 in B flat major, Op. 60
• Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67
• Symphony No. 6 in F major, Op. 68 "Pastoral"
• Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92
• Symphony No. 8 in F major, Op. 93
• Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 "Choral"
• Overture, "The Creatures of Prometheus", Op. 43
• Overture, "Fidelio" Op. 72b
• Overture, "Egmont" Op. 84

(A huge thanks to YouTube user, "On the Top of Damavand", for posting those.)

[George]

Thanks, PPP!

[Peter Power Pop]

Thanks, PPP!

No problem, George. I can go into a bit more detail if you want, because I'm about to listen to that Cluytens set again. (I can't stay away from it.) But first I need to wait until I've finished listening to the disappointing set by Muti. (The performances are so... ordinary.)

Light-bulb Moment: It's occurred to me that I don't have to type another thing about the Cluytens set. It's all there in the music.

All the symphonies in a playlist:

http://www.youtube.com/v/kZqMUdrmoZM?list=PLIFicuBowCuc2WB5CA3c7bLfrG8FKvMgE


Or the individual works:

Symphony No. 1 in C major, Op. 21
http://www.youtube.com/v/kZqMUdrmoZM


Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 36
http://www.youtube.com/v/T0ojytLxqwE


Symphony No. 3 in E flat major, Op. 55 "Eroica"
http://www.youtube.com/v/PnNJI-oUz6k


Symphony No. 4 in B flat major, Op. 60
http://www.youtube.com/v/S_zxPCRjlZQ


Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67
http://www.youtube.com/v/kBqvs7xdiKg


Symphony No. 6 in F major, Op. 68 "Pastoral"
http://www.youtube.com/v/0QJ3Ub6E4bc


Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92
http://www.youtube.com/v/FY5pYMdhG_w


Symphony No. 8 in F major, Op. 93
http://www.youtube.com/v/SQ0rheInK30


Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 "Choral"
http://www.youtube.com/v/LBTAx07c8X8


Overture, "The Creatures of Prometheus", Op. 43
http://www.youtube.com/v/rkq8VJo4nuM


Overture, "Fidelio", Op. 72b
http://www.youtube.com/v/8efLptiub0g


Overture, "Egmont", Op. 84
http://www.youtube.com/v/9xkIgKwzwMM

[Leo K.]

It s one of my favourites too. It's big Beethoven, big big. Beethoven storms heaven kicking butt and taking names. Out of favour these days but very effective.

This is my cup of tea too! Aces!

[NJ Joe]

I am absolutely in love with this right now; the remastered 1977 set.  The vinyl was the first complete set I ever owned, and it has always stayed with me.
The sound of these blazing performances has never been better.  The 4th movement of the 7th symphony knocked my socks off today.

[Sergeant Rock]

Top 5:

Norrington/LCP
Szell/Cleveland
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin
Böhm/Vienna


Sarge

[Cosi bel do]

I very recently listened to the late Giulini cycle, recorded by Sony. Symphonies 1-8 with the Orchestra Filarmonica della Scala (an "all star" Italian orchestra with many musicians from La Scala + leaders and soloists from other orchestras, a formula that may have inspired Abbado's late frenzy of new orchestras), symphony 9 (recorded first actually) with Berliner Philharmoniker.

And it's really a boring cycle, the most boring one I know, I think. And a great frustration because there are some positive points and I still recommend to hear it because of them :
- Giulini makes this temporary orchestra sound like one of the best, the wind sections really sound like Vienna, and in the later recordings (symphonies 3, 4, 5) there's an excellent density in the strings. Of course there are still very little mistakes (and also Sony did not do a great job in these recordings), but there are excellent Beethoven cycles on really less beautiful orchestras.
- On the first recordings of the cycle (symphonies 1, 2, 7, the wide tempo gives a very dull result, but in symphonies 3 or even more 4, it seems that the musicians really perform what Giulini wants at last, and you can hear Giulini's slow and dense theatrality again, which is a good surprise. Even if, at this tempo, it still lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc.

My comparison frenzy includes a long-term comparison of all Beethoven cycles I can find. I take my time. Mengelberg's live cycle with the COncertgebouworkest is ahead, for the moment.

[Peter Power Pop]

I very recently listened to the late Giulini cycle, recorded by Sony. Symphonies 1-8 with the Orchestra Filarmonica della Scala (an "all star" Italian orchestra with many musicians from La Scala + leaders and soloists from other orchestras, a formula that may have inspired Abbado's late frenzy of new orchestras), symphony 9 (recorded first actually) with Berliner Philharmoniker.

And it's really a boring cycle, the most boring one I know, I think. ...

Try the Muti.

(Now, I don't want to speak ill of any conductor, especially someone whose conducting I like as much as Riccardo Muti – his Pictures at an Exhibition is astonishing – but Ricky's low-voltage way with the Beethoven symphonies is something I don't want to hear again in a hurry.)

... And a great frustration because there are some positive points and I still recommend to hear it because of them :
- Giulini makes this temporary orchestra sound like one of the best, the wind sections really sound like Vienna, and in the later recordings (symphonies 3, 4, 5) there's an excellent density in the strings. Of course there are still very little mistakes (and also Sony did not do a great job in these recordings), but there are excellent Beethoven cycles on really less beautiful orchestras.
- On the first recordings of the cycle (symphonies 1, 2, 7, the wide tempo gives a very dull result, but in symphonies 3 or even more 4, it seems that the musicians really perform what Giulini wants at last, and you can hear Giulini's slow and dense theatrality again, which is a good surprise. Even if, at this tempo, it still lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc.

My comparison frenzy includes a long-term comparison of all Beethoven cycles I can find. ...

I hear ya. I'm on a mission to hear every set ever released.

... I take my time. Mengelberg's live cycle with the Concertgebouworkest is ahead, for the moment.

There's another one I haven't heard.

[Mookalafalas]

I very recently listened to the late Giulini cycle, recorded by Sony. Symphonies 1-8 with the Orchestra Filarmonica della Scala (an "all star" Italian orchestra with many musicians from La Scala + leaders and soloists from other orchestras, a formula that may have inspired Abbado's late frenzy of new orchestras), symphony 9 (recorded first actually) with Berliner Philharmoniker.

And it's really a boring cycle, the most boring one I know, I think. And a great frustration because there are some positive points and I still recommend to hear it because of them :
- Giulini makes this temporary orchestra sound like one of the best, the wind sections really sound like Vienna, and in the later recordings (symphonies 3, 4, 5) there's an excellent density in the strings. Of course there are still very little mistakes (and also Sony did not do a great job in these recordings), but there are excellent Beethoven cycles on really less beautiful orchestras.
- On the first recordings of the cycle (symphonies 1, 2, 7, the wide tempo gives a very dull result, but in symphonies 3 or even more 4, it seems that the musicians really perform what Giulini wants at last, and you can hear Giulini's slow and dense theatrality again, which is a good surprise. Even if, at this tempo, it still lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc.

My comparison frenzy includes a long-term comparison of all Beethoven cycles I can find. I take my time. Mengelberg's live cycle with the COncertgebouworkest is ahead, for the moment.

  One of my favorite sets, for the reasons you list above--including the negative ones ("lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc."). Of course it has those things, but much less than many other versions.  It's gorgeous, sumptuous Beethoven--not a bit dull for me, but I can certainly understand why most feel that it is. 

[André]

With the recent acquisition of the Nagano-Montreal set (still in wraps), I count 21 cycles on my shelves. That's probably half a dozen too many,, as they are not all intense or individual enough to make the cut. Among those I return to more often for that individual POV are:

- Böhm WP
- Wyn Morris LSO
- Scherchen VSOO
- Peter Maag
- Schmidt-Issestedt WP
- Karajan BP 1977
- Cluytens BP
- Ansermet SRO

Not to be easily discarded: Ferencsik, KKletzki, Bernstein II, Monteux.

[kishnevi]

Less than two dozen?  I have at least 30, maybe 35.  I lost track a while ago.
It tells you how crowded this field is when I can say I only have four of the ones you mention.

My favorites in no real order
Karajan 1980s
Bohm WP
Bernstein II
Gardiner
Chailly (my current overall pick)
P.Jarvi

I just finished Bruggen I tonight (although I still have the last two CDs of the set, the VC and Prometheus, to hear).

[Brian]

I hear ya. I'm on a mission to hear every set ever released.

Then I'm keen to hear some more of YOUR thoughts on some cycles!

Here are a few that I'm particularly keen about right now (alphabetical by conductor) (not all-time favorites!):
- Abbado/BPO "red box"
- Barenboim
- Chailly
- Cluytens

Barenboim and Chailly are basically opposites, with Cluytens and Abbado in the middle.

Jeffrey, the violin concerto you're soon to hear is one of two Beethoven violin concerto recordings I enjoy hearing. (Isabelle Faust)

[kishnevi]

The VC is the installment of that set I already have.
Which Barenboim?  I have two from him (the fedora cover on Warner, and the Beethoven For All).  Do not remember either as a standout.

[Brian]

The VC is the installment of that set I already have.
Which Barenboim?  I have two from him (the fedora cover on Warner, and the Beethoven For All).  Do not remember either as a standout.

Oh, definitely fedora/Warner/Berlin. Very slow, very "big", the opposite of what I usually prefer. Except for his Pastoral, which is exactly how I prefer it: as romantic and luscious and pretty as possible.

[kishnevi]

Oh, definitely fedora/Warner/Berlin. Very slow, very "big", the opposite of what I usually prefer. Except for his Pastoral, which is exactly how I prefer it: as romantic and luscious and pretty as possible.

You must love Bruno Walter's recording, in that case.