Author Topic: How to pronounce the names of composers  (Read 7294 times)

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Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2016, 06:10:43 AM »
The French seem to like stressing the final syllable of words, so that when I was watching Michael Haneke's engrossing French film The Piano Teacher the other week, I heard Isabelle Huppert saying schön-BERG, schu-BERT, etc. On the other hand, we Americans always refer to Bizet's opera as CAR-men, while the score invariably stresses the final syllable, as in car-MEN. But then again, car-MEN is not a composer, and is therefore irrelevant to this thread.

I will however persist in mispronouncing Dufay with two syllables as du-FAY. I'm sure he will not object, and I prefer it that way.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2016, 06:13:44 AM by (poco) Sforzando »
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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2016, 06:16:42 AM »
I will however persist in mispronouncing Dufay with two syllables as du-FAY. I'm sure he will not object, and I prefer it that way.

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Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2016, 09:01:58 AM »
I would like to hear from any native German speakers if the proper pronunciation is BEE-thoven (as is universal in America) or bee-THO-ven, as one sometimes hears from Europeans.

Mlle. Huppert also in true French style referred to the composer of Meistersinger as wag-NAYR. To quote Henry Higgins from My Fair Lady, "The French never care what they do, actually, as long as they pronounce in properly."
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Offline Jo498

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2016, 11:19:52 AM »
I never heard anything but BEET-hoven, i.e. stress on the first (or third to last as such things are often counted) syllable and the second starting with an h which is neither silent nor dropped.
Maybe the Dutch stress it differently in analogy with words from their language?

BTW do people generally pronounce "Lassus" French? I go for the italianate Orlando di Lasso but should it be latinate Rolandus Lassus or French Roland Lassus?
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Offline Camphy

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2016, 11:21:26 AM »
Maybe the Dutch stress it differently in analogy with words from their language?

Most of them don't.

Offline Jo498

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2016, 11:25:47 AM »
The name is from Dutch, of course, but would it even be stressed differently in Dutch?
I thought of "Eindhoven", but apparently I was wrong/confused about the stress there as well and it is on the "Eind", too.
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Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2016, 11:49:38 AM »
I never heard anything but BEET-hoven, i.e. stress on the first (or third to last as such things are often counted) syllable and the second starting with an h which is neither silent nor dropped.

Mrs. Rock confirms: BEET-hoven...which means I've been mispronouncing it (Bee-thoven) my entire six decades...even though I've lived with Mrs. Rock (a native German) for almost four  :(  In my defense, the difference is subtle and not easily detectable...at least by my ears.

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Offline Jo498

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2016, 12:10:24 PM »
But you did not pronounce the "th" in the English way, I guess ;)

Whether one says "BEE-T(h)oven" or "BEET-hoven" is indeed rather subtle (whereas the stress is not) and one will probably hear both. When talking quickly I would probably not make a real difference either. But slipping into a radio announcer mode and trying to pronounce clearly I would always pronounce it the second way.

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Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2016, 12:17:28 PM »
But you did not pronounce the "th" in the English way, I guess ;)

 ;D :D ;D

No, I pronounced the th German style: Bee-Zoven   ;)

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
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Offline Jo498

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2016, 12:27:10 PM »
It's actually "besoffen" :D
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
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Offline Sergeant Rock

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2016, 12:33:46 PM »
It's actually "besoffen" :D

Of course ;D  But I wanted to make the joke understandable to the English speakers here who wouldn't know a German s sounds like an English Z.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2016, 02:03:16 PM »
Of course ;D  But I wanted to make the joke understandable to the English speakers here who wouldn't know a German s sounds like an English Z.

Sarge

And Beethoven was oftentimes ganz besoffen.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Offline pjme

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2016, 06:47:28 AM »
The name is from Dutch, of course, but would it even be stressed differently in Dutch?
I thought of "Eindhoven", but apparently I was wrong/confused about the stress there as well and it is on the "Eind", too.

Ok - Belgium and the  Netherlands form the Low Countries, but, just to be correct, Ludwig's family stems from Mechelen, a very Flemish city halfway between Antwerp and Brussels.

Documents on the Van Beethoven name in Mechelen go back as far as 1574 and concern an Elisabeth Van Beethoven. If this lady is connected to Ludwig must remain unclear since  many documents are missing. It is only from the late 17th - early 18th century on that enough well kept documents survive that indicate that Ludwig's grandfather Michiel  did live in Mechelen and did move to Bonn in 1741, for financial reasons.
Michiel died when Ludwig was three - so he never really knew his grandfather. Michiel went to Bonn because two of his sons worked there already.

In Dutch / Flemish we stress the first sylabble Béét-hoven. The French quite often apply ...french pronunciation rules to foreign words .... Béet - hov - èn. But definitely not everybody speeks about "mozaar" or "Béét ho vèn".

https://youtu.be/gnQ610TgJF8
or

https://youtu.be/LiXj-Dfmw6Y

https://youtu.be/Mabp2wSzHwE

See the (rather ugly...) little Beethoven statues in Mechelen!

https://www.360cities.net/image/mechelen-beethoven?set=395

P.



Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2016, 10:09:29 AM »
In the US, you will almost always hear the first syllable accented, and the T starting the second syllable.
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Offline XB-70 Valkyrie

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2016, 10:46:13 PM »
OK, how about Grigny?

GRIN yee?
GRON yee?

Something else?

 
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Offline pjme

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2016, 07:48:46 AM »

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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 03:35:01 PM »
The French seem to like stressing the final syllable of words, so that when I was watching Michael Haneke's engrossing French film The Piano Teacher the other week, I heard Isabelle Huppert saying schön-BERG, schu-BERT, etc. On the other hand, we Americans always refer to Bizet's opera as CAR-men, while the score invariably stresses the final syllable, as in car-MEN. But then again, car-MEN is not a composer, and is therefore irrelevant to this thread.

I will however persist in mispronouncing Dufay with two syllables as du-FAY. I'm sure he will not object, and I prefer it that way.
Not really.  It depends if the last letter of the word is pronounced or not.  For Schubert it is not.  So both syllables have the same intensity and are pronnouced chou-bair.
For Schonberg, the G is pronounced.  This puts a stress on the last syllable as you say..
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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2016, 06:33:23 AM »


I just was checking Dufay on the list as I was pretty sure, for reasons I no longer recall, that his name had three syllables. closer to Due FAH eee .
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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2016, 09:08:12 AM »
I just was checking Dufay on the list as I was pretty sure, for reasons I no longer recall, that his name had three syllables. closer to Due FAH eee .
Pronunciation, according to Wikipedia: [dy fa(j)i]
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Re: How to pronounce the names of composers
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2016, 03:16:05 AM »
The French seem to like stressing the final syllable of words, so that when I was watching Michael Haneke's engrossing French film The Piano Teacher the other week, I heard Isabelle Huppert saying schön-BERG, schu-BERT, etc.

Hah, I know what you mean. In French swearing, they always seem to say "merde" with an emphasis on the "de" -- "mer-duh". The more exasperated they are, the longer the emphasis on the "de" becomes.

In 2007 I stayed with a French family for the Summer (part of an immersion program) and they had a dog (named Rena). One time the dog threw up in the house. I was in the other room, but I distinctly remember hearing my host mom yelling at the dog:

"Rena! Non! Rena!! RENA!! NON!!!"

*sound of dog throwing up*

"mer-duuuuuuuhhh!"
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

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