Author Topic: Guillaume Dufay  (Read 7886 times)

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Online The new erato

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2013, 11:55:47 AM »
Here are the two Munrow-led anthologies that I have:





Both are classics. If you still have LP capability, I recommend getting The Art of the Netherlands in that format, since the CD reissue leaves out an entire side of instrumental music from the original issue.

As for Pro Cantione Antiqua, most of their work has been reissued in this set:



which includes, I believe, the Dufay-Dunstable album I mentioned above



as well as their fervent, gripping versions of Ockeghem's Requiem and Josquin's Deploration, for years a favorite disc of mine. I had the highly praised Clerks' Group in the Requiem, but got rid of them - compared to PCA, they were bland.
Interestingly I have all of these both on LP and CD..... 

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2013, 07:53:24 AM »
This thread needs this fantastic recording:



Anyone familiar with this one?



Looks very interesting!
I know the Blue Heron recording pretty well, and I like what they do, in Flos Florum especially.

The John Potter CD I have not enjoyed much, it just seems totally oily and vacuous. I like Potter's voice a lot though, his style of singing.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 08:03:27 AM by Mandryka »
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Offline Draško

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2013, 02:33:02 AM »
As for Pro Cantione Antiqua, most of their work has been reissued in this set:



That set is really due for one of those slim boxes reissues. It's long out of print and more than half of it never had a single disc release before that set. It was straight from LP to box to out of print. 
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Offline HIPster

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 11:41:09 AM »
A recent amazon mp purchase:



On a first listen right now and it is an incredibly beautiful disc!  The blend of voices and instruments is utterly gorgeous.

This is my first Diabolous In Music purchase and it certainly won't be the last.  Amazing group, who certainly live up to their exalted reputation with this release.

Sound is excellent, with a close-in perspective, allowing for the voices and instruments to blend together nicely.

Highly recommended to those already smitten with Dufay - and it would make an ideal starter for those new to this composer.

I already have this earmarked for the "heavy rotation" pile. . .

Offline HIPster

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2014, 03:55:49 PM »
Just ordered from BRO:



BRO has this new for $6.99 (they have a pretty nice ECM selection in general).

Description from amazon:
A new project, based on vocal fragments by Guillaume Dufay (1397-1474), combining early music and contemporary sensibilities in a most attractive way. John Potter's clear and beautiful voice enveloped in Field's generous electronic soundscapes. Respectful but imaginative approach to Dufay, a key figure in Western music history who was the first to achieve international fame in the 15th century

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2014, 06:49:57 PM »
Here are the two Munrow-led anthologies that I have:





Both are classics. If you still have LP capability, I recommend getting The Art of the Netherlands in that format, since the CD reissue leaves out an entire side of instrumental music from the original issue.

As for Pro Cantione Antiqua, most of their work has been reissued in this set:



which includes, I believe, the Dufay-Dunstable album I mentioned above



as well as their fervent, gripping versions of Ockeghem's Requiem and Josquin's Deploration, for years a favorite disc of mine. I had the highly praised Clerks' Group in the Requiem, but got rid of them - compared to PCA, they were bland.

Posting albums like this should be discouraged. We have over in CDCDCD Baklavaboy, who is seeking a cure, and Brian, who is almost clean. Temptations like this should not be flourished about.

Offline king ubu

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2014, 06:26:46 AM »
Guess these two have to be mentioned here as well, although I have no idea on what end of the smooth/anti-smooth scale they fall (I guess on the perfect blend one, and in that they sound close to perfection to me, so go figure if you don't like that):




The Binchois Consort/Andrew Kirkman

The first contains the "Missa de S. Anthonii de Padua" (54 minutes) and adds the short "O proles Hispaniae/O sidus Hispaniae", the second opens with the 41 minute "Mass for Saint James the Greater" and then goes on with five shorter pieces. They were recorded in 1996 and 1997 respectively and initially appeared on Hyperion. The Helios reissues are from 2008 and should still be readily available.
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Und do die roten röslein stan:
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Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
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Offline sanantonio

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2015, 08:43:12 AM »
Guess these two have to be mentioned here as well, although I have no idea on what end of the smooth/anti-smooth scale they fall (I guess on the perfect blend one, and in that they sound close to perfection to me, so go figure if you don't like that):




The Binchois Consort/Andrew Kirkman

The first contains the "Missa de S. Anthonii de Padua" (54 minutes) and adds the short "O proles Hispaniae/O sidus Hispaniae", the second opens with the 41 minute "Mass for Saint James the Greater" and then goes on with five shorter pieces. They were recorded in 1996 and 1997 respectively and initially appeared on Hyperion. The Helios reissues are from 2008 and should still be readily available.

Excellent ensemble. 




Offline Mandryka

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2015, 09:57:17 PM »


The Credo in Oxford Camerata's Homme Armé is really very very beautiful, and the balance is so perfectly voix égales  that the counterpoint is revealed in its full glory like I've never heard before. No doubt helped by their slow tempo. I think this is the best version of this mass that I've heard.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 10:03:35 PM by Mandryka »
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2015, 10:39:04 PM »
The interview here with Guido Magnano (Cantica Symphonia) seems very interesting to me, on the difference between 16th century imitative counterpoint and Dufay's voicing, and on the function of instruments. Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.

http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/context.aspx?Id=94
« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 10:52:34 PM by Mandryka »
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Online The new erato

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2015, 12:16:37 AM »
Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2015, 01:33:31 AM »
Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.

You may be right.  ;)
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Online Que

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2015, 02:04:42 AM »
The interview here with Guido Magnano (Cantica Symphonia) seems very interesting to me, on the difference between 16th century imitative counterpoint and Dufay's voicing, and on the function of instruments. Maybe I'm wrong to value voix égales.

http://www.glossamusic.com/glossa/context.aspx?Id=94

Perhaps someone can point me to the good bits, but every time I sample anything by the Cantica Symphonia under Magnano it goes entirely the wrong way down.....
It sounds hugely interventionist, with made up and totally out of place sounding instrumental accompaniments... ::)

Q
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Offline Mandryka

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2015, 09:02:59 AM »

It sounds hugely interventionist, with made up and totally out of place sounding instrumental accompaniments... ::)

Q

He says in his defence

 
Quote
In this [use of instruments] we are not striving for (presumed) authenticity, but rather for a way to help the modern listener to perceive this “stratification”, the peculiar dialectics between voices, and the full structural and conceptual complexity of the polyphonic texture, which escapes our aural perception if we level all timbres and flatten the differences between voices.

The practice of mixing voices and instruments, then, led us to feel that Dufay, while writing only three or four voices to form a polyphonic work, often seems to demand a genuine “orchestration”, rich and varied in tone colours. This seems, in our view, to comply with the idea of “varietas” of which Dufay was the acclaimed master.

So there are two reasons to use instruments. One is to make accessible something which is allegedly essential to medieval counterpoint - that not all voices are equal. I guess the instrumental timbres underline the important voice. This is what he means by stratification.

And second, that the concept of varietas in medieval music isn't just about rhythmic variety, but also about timbre, and that the instrumental timbres help here.

I need to understand the hierarchy of voices in medieval music better to comment on this, and I'm just not there yet. I,just tried to listen to Hilliard and Cantica symphonia play the Homme Armé Credo, to see just what the instruments are actually doing, but I'm not able to draw any firm conclusions yet. I feel very conscious of my lack of understanding of medieval music.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2015, 09:06:05 AM by Mandryka »
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Online Que

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2015, 01:32:25 PM »
He says in his defence

 
So there are two reasons to use instruments. One is to make accessible something which is allegedly essential to medieval counterpoint - that not all voices are equal. I guess the instrumental timbres underline the important voice. This is what he means by stratification.

And second, that the concept of varietas in medieval music isn't just about rhythmic variety, but also about timbre, and that the instrumental timbres help here.

I need to understand the hierarchy of voices in medieval music better to comment on this, and I'm just not there yet. I,just tried to listen to Hilliard and Cantica symphonia play the Homme Armé Credo, to see just what the instruments are actually doing, but I'm not able to draw any firm conclusions yet. I feel very conscious of my lack of understanding of medieval music.

So, basically his reasoning is basically as follows: 1) the modern listener needs help; and 2) the composer (Dufay) needs help....
How pretentious and conceited! ???  I suddenly realise why I don't like Magnano 's approach.... ::)
Dufay surely doesn't  need any help...and neither do I.... 8)

Q
Ŕ chacun son goűt.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2015, 11:33:18 PM »
So, basically his reasoning is basically as follows: 1) the modern listener needs help; and 2) the composer (Dufay) needs help....
How pretentious and conceited! ???  I suddenly realise why I don't like Magnano 's approach.... ::)
Dufay surely doesn't  need any help...and neither do I.... 8)

Q

What is it that Cantica Symohinia are helping me with? What is this "stratification"?
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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2015, 06:01:01 AM »
I also am not a fan of adding instruments to the sacred vocal polyphony of Dufay by Guido Magnano and Cantica Symphonia.  While it is true we don't know everything about how instruments were used to supplement vocal performances in the Medieval and Renaissance period; we ARE certain that instruments were NOT used in church music.

Also, just the sound of it is not as pleasing to my ears as a good a cappela performance.


Offline Mandryka

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2015, 07:12:14 AM »
I also am not a fan of adding instruments to the sacred vocal polyphony of Dufay by Guido Magnano and Cantica Symphonia.  While it is true we don't know everything about how instruments were used to supplement vocal performances in the Medieval and Renaissance period; we ARE certain that instruments were NOT used in church music.
.

I think I agree with you, and I think the guys at Cantica Symohinia would agree with you. They're not trying to recreate 14th century performance practices. What they are trying to do is as yet rather unclear to me, but I'm curious because I have an intuition that they're not charlatans.

 
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2015, 09:48:56 AM »
So, basically his reasoning is basically as follows: 1) the modern listener needs help; and 2) the composer (Dufay) needs help....
How pretentious and conceited! ???  I suddenly realise why I don't like Magnano 's approach.... ::)
Dufay surely doesn't  need any help...and neither do I.... 8)

Q

I shall go so far as to say, that the caleidoscopic use of instruments in these recordings rather confuses me than "helps" me.
res severa verum gaudium

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Guillaume Dufay
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2015, 02:10:58 PM »
In the interview, Giuseppi Maleto directs our attention to the words "Genitum, non factum, consubstantialem Patri, per quem omnia facta sunt" in the Credo. This is an example of where the writing is particularly complex, and he thinks that it was meaningful for of all sorts of neo-platonic reasons  inaccessible to a modern audience, and that his kaleidoscope of timbres help the modern audience recognise the complexity.

Listening to it, I did feel that that the 20 seconds of music seemed more of a major event in his recording the in Summerley's or Hilliard's. And that was due to the complexity being more obvious.

More generally, I think that the CS Homme Armé is more extrovert than my other two recordings, more showy. And sometimes it sounded like a piece for brass with vocalise accompaniment.

And even more generally, the whole discussion has reminded me of Hans Zender's transcription of the Schumann Fantasie, which I think is interesting. Zender tends to give each motif its own orchestral timbre  - the result is quite revealing IMO.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 02:16:39 PM by Mandryka »
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