Author Topic: Schoenberg's Sheen  (Read 54413 times)

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Offline snyprrr

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen ATHERTON BOX
« Reply #500 on: September 14, 2017, 02:57:11 PM »
Serenade
Suite
Wind Quintet


I took out the two Atherton/Decca discs; I'm always up for the Serenade, probably because of the mandolin- there's a profuse garden of detail in all three works. I still find they sound like... well, whatever they've been sounding like to me for the duration: yea, no, not the sound of "mental illness", but, frankly, you'll never find a town where all the characters exhibit the tendencies that all the characters do in Schoenberg's world. It's just that everyone's just like him. It makes for nice embroidery, but, I still fail to find the propulsive motivation for it all- why does he feel the need to fill up every last space with the exact same amount of detail? And, the old fashioned rhythms, coupled with the new fangled harmony, still leads to a fractured vision. To me, it can symbolize vegetation growing, but not human interaction, though it still "sounds" as if it is trying to imitate the complexities of the human experience.

I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time, equaling Late Hindemith.

...
Of course, I find the Atherton Box charming, along with the SQs (Arditti). Arnold still sounds like Neo-Baroque to me, and nothing more. The String Trio gives the update...
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #501 on: September 15, 2017, 06:33:28 AM »
I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time.

Puh-leez ::)

8)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline opaquer

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen ATHERTON BOX
« Reply #502 on: September 15, 2017, 02:25:32 PM »
Arnold still sounds like Neo-Baroque to me, and nothing more.

I can kind of see that, I hear a lot of Bach in his highly contrapuntal sections, but he's definitely a romantic all-round

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen ATHERTON BOX
« Reply #503 on: September 15, 2017, 03:39:46 PM »
Serenade
Suite
Wind Quintet


I took out the two Atherton/Decca discs; I'm always up for the Serenade, probably because of the mandolin- there's a profuse garden of detail in all three works. I still find they sound like... well, whatever they've been sounding like to me for the duration: yea, no, not the sound of "mental illness", but, frankly, you'll never find a town where all the characters exhibit the tendencies that all the characters do in Schoenberg's world. It's just that everyone's just like him. It makes for nice embroidery, but, I still fail to find the propulsive motivation for it all- why does he feel the need to fill up every last space with the exact same amount of detail? And, the old fashioned rhythms, coupled with the new fangled harmony, still leads to a fractured vision. To me, it can symbolize vegetation growing, but not human interaction, though it still "sounds" as if it is trying to imitate the complexities of the human experience.

I'm starting to think that Schoenberg is the most "manufactured" sounding Composer of all time, equaling Late Hindemith.

...
Of course, I find the Atherton Box charming, along with the SQs (Arditti). Arnold still sounds like Neo-Baroque to me, and nothing more. The String Trio gives the update...

Schoenberg's rhythms aren't nearly so traditional as the old criticism would imply.  His later works tended not to use odd divisions of the pulse, but the actual interplay between the various lines was often extremely complex.  So many tunes...

Offline kyjo

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #504 on: September 15, 2017, 04:12:02 PM »
Anyone else here a fan of Schoenberg's delightfully quirky Cello Concerto based on Monn's Harpsichord Concerto in D major? It's hardly as successfully as his orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet no. 1, and the cello part is quite awkward-sounding at times, but I love it all the same, especially for its kaleidoscopically colorful orchestration.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #505 on: September 15, 2017, 05:53:47 PM »
Anyone else here a fan of Schoenberg's delightfully quirky Cello Concerto based on Monn's Harpsichord Concerto in D major? It's hardly as successfully as his orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet no. 1, and the cello part is quite awkward-sounding at times, but I love it all the same, especially for its kaleidoscopically colorful orchestration.
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Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #506 on: November 28, 2017, 08:42:32 AM »
This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #507 on: November 28, 2017, 08:47:50 AM »
This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.

It's an amazing work, dramatic, beautiful, searing, incisive, and carrying a greater impact than its relatively short runtime might suggest.  It seems like opera houses are beginning to catch on to this, too, as the more frequent performances in recent years have been very successful.

I don't think it's my favorite Schoenberg work, but probably in my top 5, and definitely in my top 10.  With so many masterpieces, though, it's difficult to choose.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #508 on: November 28, 2017, 10:05:15 AM »
[...] With so many masterpieces, though, it's difficult to choose.

Indeed.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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Offline Cato

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #509 on: November 28, 2017, 05:51:34 PM »
This is not at all what I would have expected, a year ago.  But my recent re-investigation of Moses und Aron has me thinking that it may very well be my new favorite Schoenberg piece.  I do not know just what veil was hiding the music from me before.  But that veil is now rent.

It's an amazing work, dramatic, beautiful, searing, incisive, and carrying a greater impact than its relatively short runtime might suggest.  It seems like opera houses are beginning to catch on to this, too, as the more frequent performances in recent years have been very successful.


There are few endings as searing as Moses, pounding the ground in frustration, unable to communicate his internal, personal, fiery vision of Divinity directly to the fickle, skeptical, stubborn Hebrews.  I have always thought that the - musically - similar ending to another unfinished, religious work, Die Jakobsleiter must  have been echoing in Schoenberg's mind, during the composition of the opera.
"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Offline ritter

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #510 on: November 29, 2017, 12:34:05 AM »
There are few endings as searing as Moses, pounding the ground in frustration, unable to communicate his internal, personal, fiery vision of Divinity directly to the fickle, skeptical, stubborn Hebrews.  I have always thought that the - musically - similar ending to another unfinished, religious work, Die Jakobsleiter must  have been echoing in Schoenberg's mind, during the composition of the opera.
"O Wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt"....one of the greatest closing lines in operatic history (even if it was not intended to be a closing line)...Simply breathtaking.

I've seen Moses und Aron live twice, both times here in Madrid. First, concert version conducted by Sylvain Cambreling (and the work is so powerful that it works perfectly well as an oratorio). As an anecdote, when it finished, two American tourists (father and son, I gathered) who were in my box and seemed new to the work, were perplexed when the audience started to leave after the applause at the end of Act II. I explained to them that Act III had not been composed (they had seen the text printed in the program, and were expecting the performance to continue). Their reaction was: "What a pity! This has been wonderful!".

Then I saw the piece fully staged, in a very insightful production by Romeo Castellucci (imported from the Paris Opéra), and conducted by Lothar Koenings. Again, very gripping, and as much a Gesamtkunstwerk as one can imagine.

Here the famous live golden calf (or bull, in this case) from that prodcution:

« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 12:49:05 AM by ritter »
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #511 on: November 29, 2017, 04:46:01 AM »
"O Wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt"....one of the greatest closing lines in operatic history (even if it was not intended to be a closing line)...Simply breathtaking.

I've seen Moses und Aron live twice, both times here in Madrid. First, concert version conducted by Sylvain Cambreling (and the work is so powerful that it works perfectly well as an oratorio). As an anecdote, when it finished, two American tourists (father and son, I gathered) who were in my box and seemed new to the work, were perplexed when the audience started to leave after the applause at the end of Act II. I explained to them that Act III had not been composed (they had seen the text printed in the program, and were expecting the performance to continue). Their reaction was: "What a pity! This has been wonderful!".

Then I saw the piece fully staged, in a very insightful production by Romeo Castellucci (imported from the Paris Opéra), and conducted by Lothar Koenings. Again, very gripping, and as much a Gesamtkunstwerk as one can imagine.

Here the famous live golden calf (or bull, in this case) from that prodcution:



Cool.

The amusing aspect to my experience this week is, I really do not know what kept me from tuning in to the opera, all these years.  It is not as if the musical language is any barrier (to me) – I love the idiom.

And, I mean, why November 2017, after all?

No matter:  I’m digging it, now.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Cato

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #512 on: December 01, 2017, 02:59:07 AM »

"O Wort, du Wort, das mir fehlt"....one of the greatest closing lines in operatic history (even if it was not intended to be a closing line)...Simply breathtaking.


Amen!  0:) 


I've seen Moses und Aron live twice, both times here in Madrid. First, concert version conducted by Sylvain Cambreling (and the work is so powerful that it works perfectly well as an oratorio). As an anecdote, when it finished, two American tourists (father and son, I gathered) who were in my box and seemed new to the work, were perplexed when the audience started to leave after the applause at the end of Act II. I explained to them that Act III had not been composed (they had seen the text printed in the program, and were expecting the performance to continue). Their reaction was: "What a pity! This has been wonderful!".


And because the ending of Act II is so powerful and true, I believe that Schoenberg's mind (unconscious or otherwise) sensed that fact, which is why Act III never happened musically.
"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #513 on: December 01, 2017, 04:38:29 AM »
Like Jacob and the Angel, Schoenberg wrestled to find the harmony between Art and Idea.  Perhaps, yes, his inner artist resisted setting the brief third Act, as possibly too Idea-ish.

I mentioned (on the WAYLT thread, I think) that I feel inspired to set the libretto from the third Act.  Mahlerian informs us that Zoltán Kocsis thought of it first—which I am glad to learn.  I suspect that Kocsis has done it the Right Way, i.e., in the Master’s style, and employing the series-complex of the first two Acts.  I’m especially glad to suppose that this has been done, because I want simply to take the libretto as a text (not as a continuation of the opera), and set it my own way (however I discover that way to be, when I am engaged in the process).  Since I am thinking of rather a chamber music environment, my piece is not any proposal for a “fulfilment” of l’opéra entier.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Maestro267

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #514 on: December 10, 2017, 05:46:59 AM »
I've finally gotten round to ordering a recording of Pelleas und Melisande, c/w Verklärte Nacht. Berlin PO conducted by Karajan. Looking forward to hearing these pieces at last.

Offline Mandryka

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #515 on: December 10, 2017, 06:16:23 AM »
Like Jacob and the Angel, Schoenberg wrestled to find the harmony between Art and Idea.  Perhaps, yes, his inner artist resisted setting the brief third Act, as possibly too Idea-ish.

I mentioned (on the WAYLT thread, I think) that I feel inspired to set the libretto from the third Act.  Mahlerian informs us that Zoltán Kocsis thought of it first—which I am glad to learn.  I suspect that Kocsis has done it the Right Way, i.e., in the Master’s style, and employing the series-complex of the first two Acts.  I’m especially glad to suppose that this has been done, because I want simply to take the libretto as a text (not as a continuation of the opera), and set it my own way (however I discover that way to be, when I am engaged in the process).  Since I am thinking of rather a chamber music environment, my piece is not any proposal for a “fulfilment” of l’opéra entier.

Tremendous! Good luck and I hope to get to hear it sometime.
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Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #516 on: December 10, 2017, 10:53:56 AM »
I've finally gotten round to ordering a recording of Pelleas und Melisande, c/w Verklärte Nacht. Berlin PO conducted by Karajan. Looking forward to hearing these pieces at last.

Great stuff. A favorite recording of mine for sure. I suppose this is the recording you’re talking about?

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Offline Maestro267

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #517 on: December 12, 2017, 06:00:08 AM »
^ That's correct, yes.

It's interesting to note that Pelleas und Melisande was premiered at the same concert as another favourite symphonic poem of mine, Zemlinsky's Die Seejungfrau.

Offline Cato

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #518 on: December 12, 2017, 09:15:45 AM »


It's interesting to note that Pelleas und Melisande was premiered at the same concert as another favourite symphonic poem of mine, Zemlinsky's Die Seejungfrau.

Oh, the good old days!  Imagine a concert today with TWO premieres by living composers! 

I suppose it might be happening now and then somewhere.  Do any orchestras make it a habit of having at least one premiere for every concert?  I recall that being the goal of some conductors, but...

"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Schoenberg's Sheen
« Reply #519 on: December 12, 2017, 09:40:25 AM »
Oh, the good old days!  Imagine a concert today with TWO premieres by living composers!

Not both pieces of such scale (and the conductor is now in deserved disgrace) but . . . Jas Levine did indeed lead the BSO in a concert which featured the première of both Jn Harbison’s Darkbloom Overture and Chas Wuorinen’s Fourth Piano Concerto (or was it the Eighth Symphony? . . .)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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