Author Topic: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas  (Read 551573 times)

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Baron Scarpia

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3920 on: January 10, 2018, 10:26:47 AM »
Well, you see, it comes down to the artist in these instance.  I was referring to a generic program playing a work, stripped of any fame associated with an actual human artist.

I wouldn't be interested in a generic playback of a piano score entered into Sibelius, etc. But, hypothetically, I can imagine an artist who can prepare a Disklavier program the same way Pollini or Argerich prepares a performance, shaping dynamics, rubato, other interpretive touches by hand-editing the file. That would be a different kind of artistry which I don't see as invalid in principal.

Offline Todd

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3921 on: January 10, 2018, 10:33:22 AM »
That would be a different kind of artistry which I don't see as invalid in principal.


This type of approach is great for electronic music, but not so much for Beethoven or Mozart, and so on.  I don't see it as valid.
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Baron Scarpia

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3922 on: January 10, 2018, 10:38:15 AM »

This type of approach is great for electronic music, but not so much for Beethoven or Mozart, and so on.  I don't see it as valid.

We all have our individual choices as to what is valid and what is not valid. Some here characterize Bach on a modern piano as invalid.

Offline Todd

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3923 on: January 10, 2018, 10:41:10 AM »
We all have our individual choices as to what is valid and what is not valid. Some here characterize Bach on a modern piano as invalid.


Indeed, but there's a difference between an artist playing music on the so-called wrong instrument and an artist not playing at all.
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Online San Antone

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3924 on: January 10, 2018, 10:48:34 AM »
I've been streaming the Schiff ECM recordings and thinking about buying the box.  Any opinions on his cycle: how he stacks up against some of the other recent sets?

Offline Todd

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3925 on: January 10, 2018, 10:52:00 AM »
I've been streaming the Schiff ECM recordings and thinking about buying the box.  Any opinions on his cycle: how he stacks up against some of the other recent sets?


He's in my fourth tier.  That written, I wouldn't want to be without it.  He produces a sort of fortepiano sonority from modern grands at times, and his insight into some sonatas (eg, 10/3) is worth hearing properly.  There is no other cycle like his; once you hear the whole thing, it will not blend in with half a dozen others, that's for sure.
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Online San Antone

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3926 on: January 10, 2018, 11:12:46 AM »

He's in my fourth tier.  That written, I wouldn't want to be without it.  He produces a sort of fortepiano sonority from modern grands at times, and his insight into some sonatas (eg, 10/3) is worth hearing properly.  There is no other cycle like his; once you hear the whole thing, it will not blend in with half a dozen others, that's for sure.

Thanks

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3927 on: January 10, 2018, 01:01:01 PM »


Once more going the Full Ludwig: Bomba Piter "St.Petersburg Collective" cycle added to the Beethoven Sonata Survey of Complete Cycles
Part 4, 1990 - 1996. Now containing 106 complete cycles!

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/06/beethoven-sonatas-survey-of-complete.html …




Online Mandryka

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3928 on: January 10, 2018, 10:03:36 PM »

The Silverman cycle is quite excellent, even if John Atkinson did not deliver audiophile quality sound.  The difference here, as you noted, is that Silverman (and Entremont) is a proper pianist, with many recordings, studio and live, and many live performances.  The same can't really be said about Claudio Colombo . . .

I think these are some live recordings by him

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3929 on: January 11, 2018, 03:04:11 AM »
I think these are some live recordings by him

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm

And yet, out of habit (?), he suggests that they are "Live" [sic] recordings.  :D

(Actually, he explains the process in the notes and they seem fairly legitimately live, even without quotation marks.)

Offline Madiel

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3930 on: January 11, 2018, 03:31:31 AM »
The thing is, Colombo's "Live" recordings are not remotely anything like the stuff he is peddling all over the rest of the internet.

For one thing, the sound quality of the 1980s live recordings is greatly inferior, as he himself acknowledges on those pages. But one can compare the recordings marked as being from 2008 to the "recordings" you actually get elsewhere, and the difference is obvious. The live ones are not anything special, but they do come across as being played by a human being. This is not the case for most of his stuff.

Try comparing the "live" Chopin op.28/4 prelude with the one from the complete album of preludes.

For op.28/20 (wrongly said to be in D minor), I admit the difference is harder to pick as both are completely mediocre.

The first movement of Mozart's K330 has more uneven touch in the live version. Just.

It's almost all completely God-awful either way, and this is the point where I'm going to stop subjecting myself to this torture. I am firm in my view that this man should not be making a cent from whatever form of mechanically-assisted note-spinning he is inflicting on the world. You can hear better playing from the kids at your local eisteddfod.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 03:41:30 AM by ørfeo »
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3931 on: January 11, 2018, 03:52:06 AM »

This cycle was put together shortly after the demise of the Soviet Union, bringing together some of St. Petersburg's finest pianists (as per the label's description of this project). The participating pianists are: Dmitri Efimov, Pavel Egorov, Igor Lebedev, Roman Lebedev, Galina Sandovskaya, Vladimir Shakin, Sergey Uryvaev, Igor Urjash, Valery Vishnevsky, Tatyana Zagorovskaya, and Leonid Zaychik. The cycle has been re-released on Audiophile Classics. On either label, it's only available on individual volumes: 10 for Bomba Piter, 11 for Audiophile Classics, and on the latter label you can also get Igor Lebedev's Diabelli Variations on a twelfth disc. For lack of a name and single pianist to pin this cycle to, I'll call it the "St. Petersburg Collective" cycle.
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The Sct. Petersburg cycle on Audiophile Classics makes 10 CDs with sonatas, not 11.
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Offline Todd

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3932 on: January 11, 2018, 06:13:17 AM »
I think these are some live recordings by him

http://www.claudiocolombo.net/acustiche.htm


That's just super.  I'm sure they will appeal to those who view his recordings of thousands of works on Yamaha digital pianos legitimate and can't get enough of this titan of the piano.
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3933 on: January 11, 2018, 06:14:03 AM »


It's almost all completely God-awful either way, and this is the point where I'm going to stop subjecting myself to this torture. I am firm in my view that this man should not be making a cent from whatever form of mechanically-assisted note-spinning he is inflicting on the world. You can hear better playing from the kids at your local eisteddfod.

It's not even about the money; I wouldn't want any poor soul to be subjected to that stuff, thinking it might be "Beethoven" (or Chopin or whatever). He's peddling swill for champagne and giving the latter a bad name.

BEETHOVEN SURVEY NEWS:

(esp. for Todd) Ooi's cycle was fully recorded but never fully released, beyond the four volumes you can at least see (if not find) online! He's since gone on to perform (maybe record? in any case not publish) the other solo keyboard works of Beethoven's and, intriguingly, the 16 string quartets in solo piano version.

The recordings were made at 13 concerts, using 9 different fortepianos.
For the sonatas, they included these: Andreas Stein (replica), Anton Walter (replica by McNulty), Jones&Round (1805, original), Broadwood (1817, original), etc
For symphonies, they included these: Johann Baptist Streicher 1846 (original), Pleyel (original), Erard 1851 (original)

The Sct. Petersburg cycle on Audiophile Classics makes 10 CDs with sonatas, not 11.

You are correct, of course; I had miscounted, including two different versions (ASIN codes) in my "Idea List" of the complete sets. Corrected.

Offline Todd

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3934 on: January 11, 2018, 06:18:50 AM »
BEETHOVEN SURVEY NEWS:

(esp. for Todd) Ooi's cycle was fully recorded but never fully released, beyond the four volumes you can at least see (if not find) online! He's since gone on to perform (maybe record? in any case not publish) the other solo keyboard works of Beethoven's and, intriguingly, the 16 string quartets in solo piano version.


Good to know, but disappointing in a way.  Hopefully they will be issued as a box sometime between 2020 and 2027.  I'd take it, even if it is HIP.
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Offline (: premont :)

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3935 on: January 11, 2018, 07:45:37 AM »
I had a hankering to put together an updated list of all available complete cycles. 
    Michael Houstoun (Morrison Trust)


This is not mentioned on your ranking list far above. How do you rate it (tier)?
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Offline Todd

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3936 on: January 11, 2018, 07:49:18 AM »
This is not mentioned on your ranking list far above. How do you rate it (tier)?


I've not listened to it in its entirety yet.  It will probably take a couple months or so to work through the three cycles I bought at the beginning of the year.
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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3937 on: January 11, 2018, 10:36:18 AM »
More info pertinent to Ooi's activities:

The solo versions of the 16 quartets were played at six concerts in summer 2013 in Kyoto (on an old 1906 NY Steinway).
The arranger was Louis Winkler, more or less, but partly movements by Tausig, Alkan, Saint-Saens, and Rubinstein were substituted.

Examples:
http://ooipiano.exblog.jp/20319824/ (No.1-6)
http://ooipiano.exblog.jp/20456252/ (no.7-12)
http://ooipiano.exblog.jp/20570940/ No.13-16)
 
You can watch Ooi's performance of the "Grosse Fuge" as arranged by Louis Winkler, on a Broadwood fortepiano from 1816 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gRLbxLr4ik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ialvRFZFEho

The CD with Symphonies No.1 & 2 arranged by Liszt includes the 1st movements of the 1st quartet, played on a Baptist Streicher 1846 instrument.


Offline Todd

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3938 on: January 24, 2018, 06:09:10 AM »
I finally heard back from DG on PBS and Kladetzky.  It's a customer service response, so it may or may not be completely accurate, but at this point I have to conclude there is no PBS Westminster cycle.  Hopefully, the Kladetzky cycle is reissued in a few years, but I won't be surprised if it is not.


1. No unfortunately, there is no Beethoven cycle with Mr. Badura-Skoda released on the Westminster label. But we do have a Westminster label edition with Paul Badura-Skoda recordings: http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4792343
There is also a Badura-Skoda edition available:  http://www.deutschegrammophon.com/en/cat/4798065

2. For the Koch-Schwann cycle:
Did you mean this recording https://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Works-Piano-Sonatas-Rondo/dp/B000025Q1L ?
Unfortunately, there is no reissue planned in the next time soon. But I will forward it to my colleagues.
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Online Mandryka

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Re: Beethoven's Piano Sonatas
« Reply #3939 on: February 08, 2018, 10:34:19 AM »


I actually was disappointed with the Beghin.....

I think it's revelatory in 110 because it's so physical and so playful, boisterously playful. By physical I mean that you're led to focus on the intense percussive sounds and the way the music full of small motifs repeated and varied - that's the focus in Beghin's approach rather than melody etc. I'm starting to think that these two things, physicality and playfulness - are really rewarding ways into late Beethoven generally.

This physicality is similar to what you have in Rite of Spring - Beethoven is Stravinsky avant la lettre.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 10:37:44 AM by Mandryka »
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