Some stats

[Gurn Blanston]

I really don't know which thread this belongs in, nor do I take a position on what it represents. But I frequently read assertions here about what is or isn't played at concerts today, and when I saw this graphic, I thought it might provide some fodder for conversation.


Click to enlarge a little bit

Does it represent what you thought were the facts, or were you way off?

Of course, Haydn is grossly underrepresented, no surprise there. 

[some guy]

No, not surprising, really.

The percentages for new music seemed a bit high, but then you look at the composers, and you see that "new" in this context means "done recently" merely, not "different from old."

Clearly the experience of symphony hall is the experience of old music, either old chronologically or old as in sounding like music written in the past. Take Ades' Asyla, for instance. It's a nice, little piece, but is there anything in it that hadn't already been done, and done much better in 1920? Maybe 24 at the latest.

At least that's closer to our time than 1886.

I remember back in the seventies, we used to say that for KUSC (in L.A.), music stopped in 1880.

So we're (or at least Baltimore) six years on since the last forty years. At this rate, symphony orchestras will have officially made it to the twentieth century by the beginning of the twenty-second.

We should be so lucky.

[Cosi bel do]

A few observations :

- OK, I see that is based on the programs of 21 symphony orchestras. Are these all American orchestras ?
- I'm surprised to see Ravel is as much played as Bach, and more than Brahms... In Germany, and even in France, I'm quite sure you'd hear more Brahms than Ravel. Whereas Boléro and Ma mère l'oye are programed almost every season by every American orchestra, or so it seems...
- It is not surprising that Bach is less played than Beethoven or Mozart when it comes to Symphony Orchestras. I find the numbers above even a little above what I thought, again this might be different in Europe where there are many more HIP ensembles, almost in any small city...
- Now, Strauss, does that mix all "Strausses", including Richard ?
- Describing Mozart as Austrian music or Beethoven as German music is a little anachronistic. Austria didn't exist then, and Beethoven composed is most played works in Vienna...
- I'm not surprised to see Finland among the best represented countries regarding contemporary composers. But not all of them are really good in my opinion, and I'm wondering if it isn't a little too fashionable to program Finnish contemporary music today (sorry North Star ).

[Gurn Blanston]

A few observations :

- OK, I see that is based on the programs of 21 symphony orchestras. Are these all American orchestras ?
- I'm surprised to see Ravel is as much played as Bach, and more than Brahms... In Germany, and even in France, I'm quite sure you'd hear more Brahms than Ravel. Whereas Boléro and Ma mère l'oye are programed almost every season by every American orchestra, or so it seems...
- It is not surprising that Bach is less played than Beethoven or Mozart when it comes to Symphony Orchestras. I find the numbers above even a little above what I thought, again this might be different in Europe where there are many more HIP ensembles, almost in any small city...
- Now, Strauss, does that mix all "Strausses", including Richard ?
- Describing Mozart as Austrian music or Beethoven as German music is a little anachronistic. Austria didn't exist then, and Beethoven composed is most played works in Vienna...
- I'm not surprised to see Finland among the best represented countries regarding contemporary composers. But not all of them are really good in my opinion, and I'm wondering if it isn't a little too fashionable to program Finnish contemporary music today (sorry North Star ).

I went to BSO's site and found a little more on this:

Methodology

    The orchestras included are the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra, Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, Cleveland Orchestra, Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Detroit Symphony Orchestra, Houston Symphony, Los Angeles Philharmonic, Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra, Minnesota Orchestra, National Symphony Orchestra, New York Philharmonic, Philadelphia Orchestra, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, San Diego Symphony, San Francisco Symphony, Seattle Symphony Orchestra, St. Louis Symphony and Utah Symphony – Utah Opera.

    The programs and repertoire included are from the 2014-2015 season as listed on each orchestra website and literature prior to the start of the season.

    Calculations for the initial findings and infographic are weighed by the number of times a piece of music will be performed in concert.

    Gala concerts, touring, chambers series, pops and family concerts are included but are in a separate category from the main classical programs. The infographic and initial findings calculations excludes these concerts.

    While technically touring, the Cleveland Orchestra's concerts in Miami are included in the main classical programs as its performances in Miami are an annual part of its season.

    To be included in any of the categories, concerts must use musicians from the listed orchestra.

    Additionally, pops and family concerts listings are not extensive, as full program repertoire is often not included online for these concerts.

    Composer nationalities are based on information from the New Grove Encyclopedia of Music and Musicians as accessed through Oxford Music Online. When no entry exists for a living composer, nationality information comes from the best available biographical information usually from the composer's website.

    Composition date is based on the best available scholarship of the year in which a piece was completed.

    Later revisions are not included in the composition date unless a concert program specifically denotes a different version of the original piece. For example, Stravinsky's Firebird Suite was completed in 1910, but the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra will perform the 1919 version and the St. Louis Symphony will perform the 1945 version for ballet and orchestra, which is included in the composition date for those entries.

    In most cases, composition date information comes from the International Music Score Library Project / Petrucci Music Library.

More information and data is available here, although I don't think the real argument here is with the data itself. It may or may not represent the way any  of us would collect and collate data, but the results wouldn't change that much. My own initial reaction was one of surprise that nearly 10% of the music performed by these orchestras is from this century. While that obviously doesn't satisfy everyone, I found it to be a surprisingly high number given that we are talking about 14 years of music writing versus 300+ years of potential stock.

France and Russia have disappeared, Britain and Finland have reared up. USA has grown at the expense of Germany and Austria. Where in hell is Italy in all this? 

Lots there, even if it isn't every orchestra in the world.

[Pat B]

France and Russia have disappeared, Britain and Finland have reared up. USA has grown at the expense of Germany and Austria. Where in hell is Italy in all this? 

Down the street at the opera house.

The major surprise to me is how high Bach is. Obviously he's an extremely popular composer, but I when I look at programs of the big orchestras I never see much baroque music.

[Ken B]

Depressing.

And who is Mason Bates?

[amw]

Doesn't sound very surprising.

NZ doesn't have 21 orchestras, but I picked up the season catalogue for the NZSO today. Beethoven's music features in 5 concerts (3 of which are all-Beethoven), the next most being Sibelius in 3 and Vaughan Williams in 2. (Only one with Mozart but HIP seems to be a bigger deal around here.) This season we got a whole Beethoven symphony cycle in addition to the usual assortment of concertos and overtures, it's not like he's neglected or anything. Meanwhile, there are seven works by living composers, five of whom are from New Zealand.

(That said there are a couple of worthwhile concerts, e.g. Kari Kriikku playing Hakola's Clarinet Concerto w/López and Lutosławski, so I can't write off the symphony completely. It's just that most of the 'more interesting' concerts this season were half full, whereas the hall sold out for things like Musorgsky/Ravel 'Pictures at an Exhibition'. People have no taste these days. )

[Gurn Blanston]

Depressing.

And who is Mason Bates?

Mason W. Bates is an American composer of symphonic music. Distinguished by his innovations in orchestration and large-scale form, Bates is best known for his expansion of the orchestra to include electronics.

[Ken B]

Even more depressing.

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Thanks for posting this, Gurn.  It's interesting if not unexpected.  The Big Three continue to lord it over other composers out of all proportion to their greatness and to common sense.  Ravel's ranking is a pleasant surprise, but wonder if might be attributable in the main to Bolero.    Some attendance figures would be useful - will seek them out. 

[Ken B]

Thanks for posting this, Gurn.  It's interesting if not unexpected.  The Big Three continue to lord it over other composers out of all proportion to their greatness and to common sense.  Ravel's ranking is a unpleasant unsurprise, but wonder if might be attributable in the main to Bolero.    Some attendance figures would be useful - will seek them out.

FTFY.
But otherwise that's it's depressing.

[Jo498]

I also wonder whether choral concerts are included. Otherwise I am puzzled at so much Bach. I'd assume that that only the violin concertos would be played frequently at "symphony" concerts, because the other stuff has been taken over by HIP and is not played that much any more by traditional orchestras.

Also interesting that Ravel is on #5, but Debussy does not even make the top 10.
I assume that in Germany/Austria/Netherlands Bruckner might beat Rachmaninov or Prokofieff to a place in the top ten. Or maybe even Schubert (of course at disadvantage with symphonies) or Haydn.

Of course, taking into account piano solo recitals and chamber music would change some things. Tchaikovsky would go somewhat down, Chopin, Debussy, maybe even Schumann might make the top 10.

[Mandryka]

I really don't know which thread this belongs in, nor do I take a position on what it represents. But I frequently read assertions here about what is or isn't played at concerts today, and when I saw this graphic, I thought it might provide some fodder for conversation.


Click to enlarge a little bit

Does it represent what you thought were the facts, or were you way off?

Of course, Haydn is grossly underrepresented, no surprise there. 

The thing that surprised me most is the absence of Mahler.

Ravel must mean Bolero.

[Karl Henning]

The percentages for new music seemed a bit high, but then you look at the composers, and you see that "new" in this context means "done recently" merely, not "different from old."

Clearly the experience of symphony hall is the experience of old music, either old chronologically or old as in sounding like music written in the past. Take Ades' Asyla, for instance. It's a nice, little piece, but is there anything in it that hadn't already been done, and done much better in 1920? Maybe 24 at the latest.

That's a tough benchmark.  Maybe it's the right benchmark, but it's tough as dammit.  I can easily imagine an unsympathetic critic saying about practically any piece which I have written that [there is nothing] in it that [hasn't] already been done, and done much better [already].  So I either need to give up composing;  or forswear my entire method and voice, to make the grade.

Or, I hope that this is not actually the benchmark . . . .

[Cosi bel do]

I'm trying to do the same stats with French orchestras, I'm quite sure there will be big differences in some numbers.
If someone wants to do that with German or British orchestras, I think the comparison would be interesting too.

[mc ukrneal]

I am sure a lot of it is bolero, but I would also expect the piano concertos to be somewhat high too. I know, for example, that the NYPO has at least one of them programmed. But I would think that any popular concertos would help bump up that composer.

As to Italian, since this is orchestra music for the most part, it excludes operas. That is where Italy would be strong.

[Karl Henning]

I've also heard Ma mère l'oye, Le tombeau de Couperin and Alborada del gracioso in Symphony Hall.

Probably our programming diet in Boston is more varied than the national average, but still . . . .

[ZauberdrachenNr.7]

Some basic attendance figures from a National Endowment for the Arts 5-Year Survey released last fall :

"Opera companies saw a 15 percent drop in attendance from 2010 to 2011, from roughly 2.7 million patrons to 2.3 million nationwide. That continues what has been an annual decline since 2007, a year when 3.6 million people went to the opera (back in 2000, 3.9 million attended a production). Americans for the Arts says the data does not account for opera companies' educational and community events, nor does it include attendance at HD movie theater screenings by the Metropolitan Opera and other companies. (The Met currently simulcasts to 1700 theaters in 54 countries; whether those screenings cannibalize live audiences remains a point of debate.)

The news is better for symphony orchestras. About 26.8 million people attended an orchestra concert in 2011, up from 26.2 million in 2010 and the highest number since 2008, when 28.7 million people went to a symphony concert. Still, there has been a longer-term downward trend; in 2000, 31.7 million attended a symphony concert."

The New York Times, in an article about this survey, called us Cassandras! :  "Classical musical supporters, perhaps the most prevalent Cassandras in the arts, will learn that their fan base has remained somewhat steady since 2008. Jazz showed some gains."   http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/26/arts/a-new-survey-finds-a-drop-in-arts-attendance.html?_r=0

[Brian]

The Ravel I'm seeing a lot more is La valse. Which I'm all in favor of.

Having talked to a lot of concertgoers and a lot of people my age, one of the top ticket-sellers is Shostakovich. I'm really surprised Shostakovich is not in the top 10 - that is a big missed opportunity. Every time I have ever spoken to a person my age who goes to classical concerts, for the last 6-7 years, they always say they "love" Shostakovich.

[Karl Henning]

The Ravel I'm seeing a lot more is La valse. Which I'm all in favor of.

Thanks for the nudge;  I've heard that beauty at Symphony Hall, too.