Author Topic: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque  (Read 55845 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8500
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #220 on: August 04, 2017, 05:58:31 AM »

Just one other thing about Aymes which I just noticed, I'm listening as I'm doing this, is that the some of the pieces seem to be arranged for clavioganum and harp, and this brings out the emotional melodic content very well.

You can see I'm really enjoying it! ill probably play it again in a month and wonder what all the fuss was about!

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13934
  • Mihai, King of Romania (1921 - 2017)
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #221 on: August 04, 2017, 06:13:39 AM »
You can see I'm really enjoying it!

And I'm glad for you, honestly!

I might actually have a problem with the harpsichord itself. Although I can tolerate it for fairly extended periods of time in the repertoire which appeals to me, I vastly prefer the piano.  :D
Regele şi Patria!

Offline bioluminescentsquid

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 129
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #222 on: August 04, 2017, 09:04:18 PM »


      



The above definition of minimalism suggests that Storace's Pastorale is the earliest piece of minimalist music. A simple short motif repeated with small variation and without goal over a pedal point, without aim. It is long - about 10 minutes.

It's a tremendous piece of music, which in some sense makes me think of the Bach violin chaconne and Beethoven's Grosse Fugue.

I have three recordings of the whole the thing, Cera, Alessandrini and Bonizzoni. Cera uses organ and percussion, while Bonizzoni and Alessandrini use just the organ. Alessandrini (in 150 years of Italian Music, I haven't heard his Storace CD yet, it's on the way hopefully) is somehow the most avant garde modern sounding; the percussion on Cera's makes for an attractive crazy dance feeling; Bonizzoni's is IMO the least successful of the three, but is nevertheless interesting because of the soaring intensity of the playing in the central section. All three are wonderful.

Just listened to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XToncb7-1gs
Interesting little piece. I think it is much like the Scarlatti Sonata recently in the blind comparison, but taken to its logical conclusion. In some way, I feel this is more the birth of the Galant than of Minimalism.

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13934
  • Mihai, King of Romania (1921 - 2017)
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #223 on: October 02, 2017, 01:50:14 AM »
(Crosspost from the WAYLT thread.)



Hat tip to Mandryka!

If you like what he does there you'll like Francesco Tristano Schlime's Frescobaldi recording, which has a similar feeling of a stoned jazz pianist in a club in the early hours of the morning.

Well, this is not very far off the mark, given that the recording was made in a Paris night club, live. Yes, that's right --- and the audience is possibly the most well-behaved I've ever witnessed on disc: not a cough, not a whisper, nothing. It's as if they were all mesmerized by the music to the point of forgetting themselves. And fascinating the music is, indeed. The sound of the piano (blessed be your soul, signor Cristofori!) turns the whole thing into a poetical and ecstatic, even mystical, experience. I struggle rather hard with Italian Renaissance keyboard music but this disc was right up my alley. I wish more pianists threw off the shackles, and rejected the monopoly, that the ideological HIP brigade have put on and assumed of, early keyboard music performance: Schlime proves convincingly that a pianist with imagination, sensitivity and commitment can work wonders in this repertoire.

Highly recommended.
Regele şi Patria!

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8500
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #224 on: October 02, 2017, 03:35:01 AM »
It's good you found a way in to this music! I think you may also enjoy Daniel-Ben Pienaar's Gibbons, it's not as laid pack as Schlimé's Frescobaldi, but it has a similar feel of spontaneous outpouring.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1770
  • Location: usa
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #225 on: October 11, 2017, 03:23:33 AM »
(Crosspost from the WAYLT thread.)



Hat tip to Mandryka!

Well, this is not very far off the mark, given that the recording was made in a Paris night club, live. Yes, that's right --- and the audience is possibly the most well-behaved I've ever witnessed on disc: not a cough, not a whisper, nothing. It's as if they were all mesmerized by the music to the point of forgetting themselves. And fascinating the music is, indeed. The sound of the piano (blessed be your soul, signor Cristofori!) turns the whole thing into a poetical and ecstatic, even mystical, experience. I struggle rather hard with Italian Renaissance keyboard music but this disc was right up my alley. I wish more pianists threw off the shackles, and rejected the monopoly, that the ideological HIP brigade have put on and assumed of, early keyboard music performance: Schlime proves convincingly that a pianist with imagination, sensitivity and commitment can work wonders in this repertoire.

Highly recommended.
Sadly, impossible to find for download. Looks fascinating. So few pianists willing. David Greilsammer has a Frescobaldi track on piano - a paltry find.

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1770
  • Location: usa
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #226 on: October 11, 2017, 04:01:32 AM »
Yes, that looks very fair. I think it's the best thing I've heard from Bonizzoni in fact. Cera is totally different, different articulation and different sounds from a different style of instrument and, of course, less speed. Incomparable.
Do you recommend the Cera? I notice it's the only one for available for download...20$ so I'll wait 'til next month. I'm interested in this. I wish I could get into English music as much as Italian from this period. I used to think Italian renaissance music was severe. Maybe it's the compulsive in me as Frescobaldi seems like everything is packaged in neat little boxes. 

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8500
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #227 on: October 11, 2017, 06:40:10 AM »
Do you recommend the Cera? I notice it's the only one for available for download...20$ so I'll wait 'til next month. I'm interested in this. I wish I could get into English music as much as Italian from this period. I used to think Italian renaissance music was severe. Maybe it's the compulsive in me as Frescobaldi seems like everything is packaged in neat little boxes.

I think Alessandrini's CD is downloadable too, as is Jorge Halubek and and Pascal Rouet and Naoko Akutagawa. I can't make a recommendation about Storace, I don't feel close enough to the music. I have enjoyed Alessandrini most, but nothing follows.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 07:42:15 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1770
  • Location: usa
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #228 on: October 11, 2017, 04:23:26 PM »
(Crosspost from the WAYLT thread.)



Hat tip to Mandryka!

Well, this is not very far off the mark, given that the recording was made in a Paris night club, live. Yes, that's right --- and the audience is possibly the most well-behaved I've ever witnessed on disc: not a cough, not a whisper, nothing. It's as if they were all mesmerized by the music to the point of forgetting themselves. And fascinating the music is, indeed. The sound of the piano (blessed be your soul, signor Cristofori!) turns the whole thing into a poetical and ecstatic, even mystical, experience. I struggle rather hard with Italian Renaissance keyboard music but this disc was right up my alley. I wish more pianists threw off the shackles, and rejected the monopoly, that the ideological HIP brigade have put on and assumed of, early keyboard music performance: Schlime proves convincingly that a pianist with imagination, sensitivity and commitment can work wonders in this repertoire.

Highly recommended.
Yeah, this is awesome stuff. I can't stop listening to it. It seems almost avant garde to me. I used to find this music uninteresting because it never really goes anywhere. But now it's such a, sort of, mysterious experience. What imagination in this performance. I'm going to play this to a friend today and ask him, "what kind of music is this? When do you think it was written?"

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1770
  • Location: usa
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #229 on: October 13, 2017, 10:38:26 PM »
Trabaci played on an Italian virginal (ok, I didn't know there was such a thing) by one Shusuke Sugimoto (who?). Now, this is the kind of thing that excites me on a Saturday afternoon.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/eEfIDkQO6bM" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/eEfIDkQO6bM</a>

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8500
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #230 on: October 14, 2017, 04:04:20 AM »
Trabaci played on an Italian virginal (ok, I didn't know there was such a thing) by one Shusuke Sugimoto (who?). Now, this is the kind of thing that excites me on a Saturday afternoon.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/eEfIDkQO6bM" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/eEfIDkQO6bM</a>

Maybe you should buy yourself this CD

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1770
  • Location: usa
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #231 on: October 14, 2017, 04:28:37 AM »
Maybe you should buy yourself this CD


I will take a look for it. Lately, this kind of music is always going in my apartment.

Offline Florestan

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 13934
  • Mihai, King of Romania (1921 - 2017)
  • Location: Bucharest, Romania
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #232 on: October 15, 2017, 02:15:52 AM »
Sorry to this thread...but...could you clear it again?

I just did.  :)
Regele şi Patria!

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1770
  • Location: usa
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #233 on: November 13, 2017, 03:58:54 AM »
Re melody, the music doesn't work by by hooking you with a tune like Schubert or Mozart or something, there are melodies, but they're not hooks. The motifs they use are developed, often rhythmically, and that, for me, can make a satisfying music experience. And there are often interesting harmonic things which go on, but it has to be on the right instrument, tuned right and voiced imaginatively. But I think that for me,  the music doesn't hook you in with a memorable appealing melody or a foot-tapping rhythm. I know Frescobaldi'a toccatas well, but I can't hum one from memory. I hardly know Mahler, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky, Schubert and Beethoven  at all, but I reckon I could hum my way through every symphony.


I want to type that the music is more cerebral than C 18th and C 19th - but I may not be being fair to later composers.

So I won't type it.  ;)

Tempo is a big issue in early music, and it's true that the tempos they choose are sometimes slower than you get in high baroque. Again, I think the music is often supposed to be  subtly and richly expressive and meditative and inward looking, rather than a jolly romp like a Corelli concerto or a Scarlatti sonata. (I'm not a great appreciator of late baroque!)
This kind of music is addictive. I just have Vartolo for the organ. I like the fantasies. And the pedal droning stuff in B2. Seems like this music has more in common with contemporary music or even Debussy than the stuff in between. The more I like this music the less patience I have for the hysterics of romanticism or the puff of galant. Well, that's how I feel lately. I'm curious if people like anything in this genre as much as Frescobaldi? I mean this moody, flat, somber and serious (Italian?) music.   

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8500
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #234 on: November 13, 2017, 08:03:09 AM »
This kind of music is addictive. I just have Vartolo for the organ. I like the fantasies. And the pedal droning stuff in B2. Seems like this music has more in common with contemporary music or even Debussy than the stuff in between. The more I like this music the less patience I have for the hysterics of romanticism or the puff of galant. Well, that's how I feel lately. I'm curious if people like anything in this genre as much as Frescobaldi? I mean this moody, flat, somber and serious (Italian?) music.   

Rinaldo Alessandrini recorded a CD of early pieces by Bernardo Pasquini. I know you may think that I'm going mad by mentioning Pasquini, but I assure you that Alessandrini's selection is a music  totally  different from  his later bravura  style. What it shows is a Pasquini who is a bit in the vein of both Frescobaldi and Louis Couperin. I have a strong intuition you will like it.

Have you heard anything by Andrea Gabrieli? (Glen Wilson's is the only recommendable dedicated CD IMO,  similarly for Cavazzoni.)

Alessandrini recorded an anthology called 150 years of Italian Music, or something like that, I don't think you'd regret hearing it.

Sergio Vartolo recorded an anthology CD at Lanvellec called Preludes à la Fugue, with music by the Gabrielis, Trabaci and others. I like everything about it.

A more left field recommendation is Irena de Ruvo's recording of Giovanni Battista Dalla Gostena transcriptions - certainly if you enjoy Gesualdo.

I would need to listen again to Luzzaschi and Willaert to comment with any confidence, there could be interesting things in there. I know I enjoy Messori's Luzzaschi more and more each time I hear it, and performances of Willaert less and less. Trabaci is also someone to explore - but I can't think now . . .
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 10:27:38 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5893
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #235 on: November 13, 2017, 12:31:40 PM »
Rinaldo Alessandrini recorded a CD of early pieces by Bernardo Pasquini. I know you may think that I'm going mad by mentioning Pasquini, but I assure you that Alessandrini's selection is a music  totally  different from  his later bravura  style. What it shows is a Pasquini who is a bit in the vein of both Frescobaldi and Louis Couperin.

I take you at your word and have just ordered it from an Amazon MP seller.

Alessandrini's later bravura style, what do you precisely think of?
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8500
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #236 on: November 13, 2017, 12:36:57 PM »
I take you at your word and have just ordered it from an Amazon MP seller.

Alessandrini's later bravura style, what do you precisely think of?

I meant Pasquini's later bravura style!  In fact I probably shouldn't say this with confidence because I'm not sure whether Pasquini's music is really datable, but the pieces Alessandrini chose for his recording do seem to be in a style which looks back,  as it were, and so I'm kind of guessing that they're earlier.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 12:39:28 PM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5893
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #237 on: November 13, 2017, 12:56:20 PM »
I meant Pasquini's later bravura style!  In fact I probably shouldn't say this with confidence because I'm not sure whether Pasquini's music is really datable, but the pieces Alessandrini chose for his recording do seem to be in a style which looks back,  as it were, and so I'm kind of guessing that they're earlier.

Bernardo Pasquini (1637 -1710). The cover of Alessandrini's recording reads :
Sonate per gravicembalo 1702, which seems to be a relatively late date in Pasquini's life.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8500
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #238 on: November 13, 2017, 01:17:40 PM »
Bernardo Pasquini (1637 -1710). The cover of Alessandrini's recording reads :
Sonate per gravicembalo 1702, which seems to be a relatively late date in Pasquini's life.

That's interesting, see what you think when you hear the music. The virtuoso music I was really thinking of was the two harpsichord sonatas which this thing I found on the web suggests  Attilio Cemonesi dates at 1704. But honestly I have no idea what these dates are referring to - autographs, publications, dates of compositions . . .

http://www.radioswissclassic.ch/it/banca-dati-musicale/musicista/27017be25c00b1ea965c8fc2b16099483e209/biography
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 5893
Re: Italian Music from the Late Renaissance and Baroque
« Reply #239 on: November 13, 2017, 01:31:17 PM »
That's interesting, see what you think when you hear the music. The virtuoso music I was really thinking of was the two harpsichord sonatas which this thing I found on the web suggests  Attilio Cemonesi dates at 1704. But honestly I have no idea what these dates are referring to - autographs, publications, dates of compositions . . .

http://www.radioswissclassic.ch/it/banca-dati-musicale/musicista/27017be25c00b1ea965c8fc2b16099483e209/biography

From this website:
La fonte principale della sua produzione tastieristica si trova in una fonte manoscritta in 4 volumi (conservata in parte a Berlino ed in parte a Londra) redatta dallo stesso compositore fra gli ultimi anni del Seicento ed i primi del Settecento.

Sonate a due cimbali - 1704, Attilio Cemonesi, Alessandro De Marchi, 1992, Symphonia SY91S06

Also it seems that it is the fourteen sonatas for two keyboards which are dated to 1704. I do not think that they represent bravura style, on the contrary I find them to be the most charming of his keyboard works. Note that they only are notated from Pasquini's hand as two basso parts, and that the performers - whatever the recording - have added the rest. So the bravura you think of may stem from the performers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_C9T20hRzKc
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 01:35:29 PM by (: premont :) »
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Buying Music From Amazon?
Please consider using these links. A small percentage of every sale using these links is passed on to GMG and helps keep this forum online.
Amazon US
Amazon Canada
Amazon UK