Author Topic: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work  (Read 9066 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 60940
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« on: November 17, 2014, 05:12:36 AM »
Perhaps the Wind Quintet, Op.26?  Its reputation may have suffered for lack of a performance/recording to serve as good embassage.

Or, perhaps the same is to be said of the Suite-Septet, Op.29?

I was tempted to suggest the Weihnachtsmusik, but I think that one more correctly unknown rather than underrated.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline mc ukrneal

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9138
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 05:17:02 AM »
I actually don't feel there are any. I think he gets so much scrutiny that it makes it difficult to find sparkling gems that no one knows about. Even though he is not a favorite, I find the quality of his output generally high.
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 60940
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2014, 05:35:23 AM »
Perfectly fair.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline not edward

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3827
  • Hello, little man. I will destroy you.
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2014, 06:58:46 AM »
Perhaps the violin concerto, which I think has suffered from unspectacular recordings in the past (fortunately we now have Hahn/Salonen and Schulte/Craft).

I might add the Serenade, which is a delightful work but seems to get very little attention (having a vocal soloist for 3 minutes out of 35 probably doesn't help).

And I'll second any mention of Weihnachtsmusik.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

snyprrr

  • Guest
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2014, 07:31:26 AM »
yea, i guess what you said, but yea,... i don't understand why the concern... I think it's correct that ASCH has been "fairly" dealt with, and his, uh, "small" output has been placed in its proper context.

The ones mentioned aren't really 'Underrated', are they? I though ALL ASCH was "judged" to be about the same watermark (good or bad, not being critical)

Actually, rainy today would be perfect ASCH weather if I had the WWQ here (Atherton).

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 60940
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2014, 07:41:24 AM »
None of it is underrated is a possible outcome of this discussion.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 57579
  • Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Dvořák, Berlioz, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2014, 07:45:20 AM »
Given that Die Jakobsleiter hasn't been recorded too often (I believe Moses und Aron even has more recordings), I choose this work as one of Schoenberg's most underrated. I really love this work, too. The Boulez recording is great. I have yet to hear Nagano's.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2014, 07:51:37 AM »
Music to accompany a film scene*

*or whatever its formal title is...I do not have it handy.

Most overrated would probably be Pierrot Lunaire.
[Takes cover while Karl fetches Sarge's bazooka]

Given that Die Jakobsleiter hasn't been recorded too often (I believe Moses und Aron even has more recordings), I choose this work as one of Schoenberg's most underrated. I really love this work, too. The Boulez recording is great. I have yet to hear Nagano's.

Given that Schoenberg more or less abandoned it,  perhaps even he underrated it. 

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 57579
  • Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Dvořák, Berlioz, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2014, 07:57:31 AM »
Music to accompany a film scene*

*or whatever its formal title is...I do not have it handy.

Yes, the original title is Begleitmusik zu einer Lichtspielszene and it's a fantastic work! Love it!

Given that Schoenberg more or less abandoned it,  perhaps even he underrated it.

Yep and according to the Wikipedia article, he left 700 measures unfinished. :( Still, it's a hell of work given it's incomplete.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 60940
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2014, 08:03:13 AM »
Most overrated would probably be Pierrot Lunaire.
[Takes cover while Karl fetches Sarge's bazooka]

Nah, I'm in Flower Child mode at least until 1Q15  ;)
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9255
  • An American Hero!
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2014, 09:10:16 AM »
Given that Die Jakobsleiter hasn't been recorded too often (I believe Moses und Aron even has more recordings), I choose this work as one of Schoenberg's most underrated. I really love this work, too. The Boulez recording is great. I have yet to hear Nagano's.

Absolutely haunting work!  Yes, this may be the most underrated of Schoenberg's works!  I used to have my 4th year German students translate the - seemingly unmusical - text, and then we listened to it.  What is fascinating is how that text does flow throughout the work.

I used to own a recording with a fascinating performance conducted by Bruno Maderna, but it was destroyed.


Yep and according to the Wikipedia article, he left 700 measures unfinished. :( Still, it's a hell of work given it's incomplete.

I think there is a mistake: the entire work is about that length.  I don't have my score with me, but I believe it has just under 700 bars.  Perhaps the article means that there are c. 700 bars in the score which are playable, and comprising what we do have today, but perhaps not in "finished" form.

I do not recall ever hearing about another 700 bars in "unfinished" form, but perhaps this is something new.  Later today I will consult my score and see what information might be in it.







"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 57579
  • Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Dvořák, Berlioz, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2014, 09:21:37 AM »
Absolutely haunting work!  Yes, this may be the most underrated of Schoenberg's works!  I used to have my 4th year German students translate the - seemingly unmusical - text, and then we listened to it.  What is fascinating is how that text does flow throughout the work.

I used to own a recording with a fascinating performance conducted by Bruno Maderna, but it was destroyed.

I think there is a mistake: the entire work is about that length.  I don't have my score with me, but I believe it has just under 700 bars.  Perhaps the article means that there are c. 700 bars in the score which are playable, and comprising what we do have today, but perhaps not in "finished" form.

I do not recall ever hearing about another 700 bars in "unfinished" form, but perhaps this is something new.  Later today I will consult my score and see what information might be in it.

Seems I struck a chord with you here, Cato. :) Yes, a magnificent work whether it's unfinished or not. Yeah, it's hard to decipher Wikipedia articles at times. I'd love to know any kind of information you can provide us with here. I'll have to track down that Maderna recording. I know it's on YouTube, but I would rather own an actual copy of his performance.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 57579
  • Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Dvořák, Berlioz, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2014, 10:02:05 AM »
I forgot that Gielen has a performance of Die Jakobsleiter that's coupled with Mahler's 8th. Has anyone heard it?

"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 60940
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2014, 10:23:54 AM »
I forgot that Gielen has a performance of Die Jakobsleiter that's coupled with Mahler's 8th. Has anyone heard it?



I have not, but I suspect it is well worth hearing . . . and I am tempted to hear his account of the Mahler Eighth . . . .
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 10:25:28 AM by karlhenning »
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 57579
  • Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Dvořák, Berlioz, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2014, 10:24:56 AM »
I have not, but I suspect it is well worth hearing . . . and I am tempted to hear his account of the Mahler Eighth[/b . . . .

I thought you weren't keen on Mahler's music, Karl?
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 60940
  • Et quid amabo nisi quod ænigma est?
    • Henningmusick
  • Location: Boston, Mass.
  • Currently Listening to:
    Shostakovich, D. Scarlattii, Stravinsky, JS Bach, Liszt, Martinů, Haydn, Henning
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2014, 10:29:18 AM »
In a sense, that is true, John:  my ears as a rule do not hunger after Mahler as they do after quite a few other composers.  But, I have become positively reconciled to his symphonies.  I do not often seek out the Eighth, in particular, but the thought of a Gielen recording has me keen to give it a listen.
 
I'm more enthusiastic about the Bruckner symphonies than about Mahler's;  and Bruckner generally waits his turn behind a few other composers.  That said, though, I do enjoy pretty much all the Mahler symphonies . . . just need to be in the mood.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 57579
  • Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Dvořák, Berlioz, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2014, 10:34:11 AM »
In a sense, that is true, John:  my ears as a rule do not hunger after Mahler as they do after quite a few other composers.  But, I have become positively reconciled to his symphonies.  I do not often seek out the Eighth, in particular, but the thought of a Gielen recording has me keen to give it a listen.
 
I'm more enthusiastic about the Bruckner symphonies than about Mahler's;  and Bruckner generally waits his turn behind a few other composers.  That said, though, I do enjoy pretty much all the Mahler symphonies . . . just need to be in the mood.

Good to hear, Karl. I'm not the greatest Mahler fan in the world but I really love his Symphonies Nos. 4-7. Like you, I have to be in the mood for his music and there's plenty of other composers whose music I reach for instead. I'm not as much into Bruckner as I was say four years ago, but I still admire his music and well I admire Mahler's as well.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."

Offline Scion7

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2410
  • A vajda az én dolgom, és az üzlet jó.
  • Location: Borgó Pass
shouldn't this be moved to another section?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2014, 01:35:44 PM »
Or moved under the Schoenberg topic?
The Germans, who make doctrines out of everything, deal with music learnedly; the Italians, being voluptuous, seek in it lively, though fleeting, sensations; the French, more vain than perceptive, manage to speak of it wittily; and the English pay for it . . . - Stendhal

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9255
  • An American Hero!
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2014, 02:50:05 PM »
Concerning Die Jakobsleiter: I have the Universal Edition score with a preface by the editor, a certain Rudolf Stephan, which was written in 1976.

He says that bars 1-601 were finished before Schoenberg was drafted into the army for World War I. Another 100 bars were added after Schoenberg returned, with the work breaking off in 1922.  An attempt to do more in 1944 was more of a revision of the first 100 bars, and involved directions for the performance (especially off-stage groups of choirs and instrumentalists) more than anything else.

Weeks before he died, Schoenberg was involved in having conductor Karl Rankl write out a clean copy of what had been composed up until then (i.e. bars 1-701).  One of Schoenberg's students, Winfried Zillig, apparently produced a clean copy and did some editing for a performing version.

And Zillig himself has an excellent comment:

Quote
Strangely enough, the conclusion of the 'Jacob's Ladder fragment is one of the most impressive endings in the whole of Occidental music.  Schönberg's invention of sounds floating in space does indeed lead to new regions....this strange and unique enchantment arises directly from the work's unfinished state: for such a work, given its intellectual premise, can provide only an incomplete answer in view of mankind's limitations when facing the eternal."

(My emphasis above.)

Much like with Moses und Aron, Schoenberg thought he was not done, but the work itself had other ideas!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline Mirror Image

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 57579
  • Anton Bruckner (1824 - 1896)
  • Location: Northeast GA, US
  • Currently Listening to:
    Bruckner, Mahler, Sibelius, Dvořák, Berlioz, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov
Re: Most Underrated Schoenberg Work
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2014, 03:45:53 PM »
Concerning Die Jakobsleiter: I have the Universal Edition score with a preface by the editor, a certain Rudolf Stephan, which was written in 1976.

He says that bars 1-601 were finished before Schoenberg was drafted into the army for World War I. Another 100 bars were added after Schoenberg returned, with the work breaking off in 1922.  An attempt to do more in 1944 was more of a revision of the first 100 bars, and involved directions for the performance (especially off-stage groups of choirs and instrumentalists) more than anything else.

Weeks before he died, Schoenberg was involved in having conductor Karl Rankl write out a clean copy of what had been composed up until then (i.e. bars 1-701).  One of Schoenberg's students, Winfried Zillig, apparently produced a clean copy and did some editing for a performing version.

And Zillig himself has an excellent comment:

(My emphasis above.)

Much like with Moses und Aron, Schoenberg thought he was not done, but the work itself had other ideas!

Most interesting, Cato. Thanks for the information.
"Humility is society's greatest misconception."