Topic: 63 years since the uprising of 63 days

[Maciek]

Today is the 63rd Anniversary of the beginning of the Warsaw Uprising - an uprising that was supposed to be over within a few days, and ultimately lasted 63.

They say over here that no one outside Poland really knows anything about the Warsaw Uprising. It is commonly mistaken for the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

Well, here I go trying to change the world.

The ostensive reason to start the uprising was to liberate the city from the Germans. But of course that was hardly necessary under the circumstances (the Germans were already losing the war). The real reason was a desperate (and ultimately failed) attempt to somehow counter the Tehran Conference (Stalin's vision of Poland's future borders) and to ensure any sort of autonomy for Poland after the war. As it was, Stalin was more than aware of the fact (he quite rightly said that the insurgents were "enemies of the Soviet Union"). On his orders the Red Army stopped its advancement on the 5th and 6th of August, and remained put for 44 days - waiting for the Polish Home Army to bleed to death, thus thwarting in advance any organized Polish resistance to the installation of communist rule on Polish soil.

As a result of the uprising, Warsaw was totally destroyed. On the day the uprising broke out Himmler ordered for the city to be torn down and all of the citizens, whether insurgents or ordinary civilians, to be killed. About 10% of Warsaw's buildings had already been destroyed in 1939, another 15% during the Ghetto Uprising. 25% more of them were destroyed during the Warsaw Uprising, and another 35% immediately following the uprising (as an act of retribution). As a result, 85% of the city's buildings did not survive the war.

Pretty decent wikipedia article on the uprising here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising

[bwv 1080]

How popular a figure is Rokossovsky (one of the great WW2 generals) in Poland these days?

[Maciek]

He always has been, and remains at best a risible figure, though usually referred to as a criminal. In some circles he is considered an outright traitor - though that would be difficult to establish, considering his questionable "Polishness". His behaviour during the Warsaw Uprising was as unbecoming as that of any of the Russian generals. He did not react to the telegram with a call for help sent to him on August 3rd. In the 50s he led purges in the Polish army, directed against pre-world war II officers. He devised a special program for youths from bourgeois families doing their mandatory army service: he would send them to Uranium mines, labor camps, and similar places. About a thousad of his victims died immediately, several thousand others were as a result handicapped for life. During the Poznan 1956 prostests he suggested sending in the army to crush the protesters (a Tiananmen style solution). In October 1956 he ordered for the Polish and Russian armies to surround Warsaw! (Fortunately, he later ordered them to withdraw.)

All in all, an unsavoury figure, though perhaps not to the extent of Felix Dzerzhinsky...

[Maciek]

I should probably add that the reason he was found risible and was mocked was not only his despicable character and opportunistic (and quite immoral) approach to life but also the fact that he had or looked as though he had a glass (i.e. motionless) eye.

[bwv 1080]

I have mixed feelings about the Soviet generals.  On one hand they were brutal thugs, on the other they deserve more credit than any in defeating Hitler.  The Western allies never could have triumphed over Nazi Germany on their own.

[PSmith08]

All in all, an unsavoury figure, though perhaps not to the extent of Felix Dzerzhinsky...

Well, Dzerzhinsky was rightfully unpopular, Chekists from him to Yezhov to Beria aren't exactly the sorts of people that folks necessarily like, but I can't imagine Rokossovsky is more popular than Bolesław Bierut or Jakob Berman.

[Florestan]

I bow in reverence to the memory of all those Polish and Jewish people who fought against all odds for their liberty and honour!

Niech żyje Polska!

[Maciek]

Thanks, Florestan.

Well, Dzerzhinsky was rightfully unpopular, Chekists from him to Yezhov to Beria aren't exactly the sorts of people that folks necessarily like, but I can't imagine Rokossovsky is more popular than Bolesław Bierut or Jakob Berman.

You're being too condensed (for me, at least). I'm not sure I understand...? By saying that "Dzerzhinsky was rightfully unpopular" do you mean to say that Rokossowski should have been "popular"? What's the point of the comparison between Bierut, Berman and Rokossowski? Do you mean to say that morally there was some difference between them? Where did it lie? They were a part of the same clique using the means that were available to them to do roughly the same thing... I don't get your point.

[carlos]

I bow in reverence to the memory of all those Polish and Jewish people who fought against all odds for their liberty and honour!

Niech żyje Polska!

I see that you discriminate between polish and jewish
people. So, polish jews were only jews, nor polish ?

[Barak]

A distinction is not as discrimination. As was mentioned at the outset of the thread, there were two uprisings: in the (jewish) ghetto, and a later, general one.

Here's the Wikipedia article for the 1943 ghetto uprising. It took place some 16 months before.

[bwv 1080]

Thanks, Florestan.

You're being too condensed (for me, at least). I'm not sure I understand...? By saying that "Dzerzhinsky was rightfully unpopular" do you mean to say that Rokossowski should have been "popular"? What's the point of the comparison between Bierut, Berman and Rokossowski? Do you mean to say that morally there was some difference between them? Where did it lie? They were a part of the same clique using the means that were available to them to do roughly the same thing... I don't get your point.

But what about Rokossovsky vs. Dirlewanger?  Again you have to give the man his due in playing a key role in defeating Germany (which of course Berman and others played no part in) As bad as the Russians were, at least Poland still existed after 50 years of Soviet rule.

[PSmith08]

You're being too condensed (for me, at least). I'm not sure I understand...? By saying that "Dzerzhinsky was rightfully unpopular" do you mean to say that Rokossowski should have been "popular"? What's the point of the comparison between Bierut, Berman and Rokossowski? Do you mean to say that morally there was some difference between them? Where did it lie? They were a part of the same clique using the means that were available to them to do roughly the same thing... I don't get your point.

Sorry for my density. I was pointing out that Dzerzhinsky's now-public role as the chief Chekist makes him unpopular, rightfully so - given the horrors of the Cheka in any of its various guises, and that Rokossovsky should be grouped with Bierut and Berman as far as that accounting goes, despite his successes as a Soviet commander.

[Maciek]

Sorry for my density. I was pointing out that Dzerzhinsky's now-public role as the chief Chekist makes him unpopular, rightfully so - given the horrors of the Cheka in any of its various guises, and that Rokossovsky should be grouped with Bierut and Berman as far as that accounting goes, despite his successes as a Soviet commander.

Thanks for clearing that up. It seems we agree completely then.

But what about Rokossovsky vs. Dirlewanger?  Again you have to give the man his due in playing a key role in defeating Germany (which of course Berman and others played no part in) As bad as the Russians were, at least Poland still existed after 50 years of Soviet rule.

Well, frankly, my knowledge of WWII generals is not very wide (or deep ) but I can tell you what the general interpretation would from a Polish point of view:

In September 1939 Poland was attacked by two countries: Germany (on Sept. 1st) and Soviet Union (on Sept. 17th). Neither of these was ever considered a "lesser" enemy. The fact that later the Soviet Union "changed sides" did not change much for Poland - it was more of an "internal affair" between the two enemy states. Poland did not become an "ally" to the Soviet Union. Poland was more of a potential trophy for Stalin than an ally. While in a pact with the Germans, Stalin could only count on getting half of the country. Now, especially after the Tehran conference - all of it was up for grabs. The fact that Russia defeated Germany wasn't really considered a victory for Poland. It was just a case of one enemy defeating another enemy. The point of the Warsaw Uprising (and the whole of the Tempest Operation) was to somehow ensure that Poland would be among the winners of WWII. As it happened, the uprising failed, and Poland did not regain full autonomy for many, many years to come.

[PSmith08]

Asking, between Dirlewanger and Rokossovsky, who was worse, is somewhat silly. They both were butchers of innocent Poles. The fact that Rokossovsky got to help Zhukov take the salute at the victory parade, while Dirlewanger was beaten to death, doesn't somehow make things - you know - better.

It isn't like Poland did well by either the Germans or the Russians.

[bwv 1080]

Thanks for clearing that up. It seems we agree completely then.

Well, frankly, my knowledge of WWII generals is not very wide (or deep ) but I can tell you what the general interpretation would from a Polish point of view:

In September 1939 Poland was attacked by two countries: Germany (on Sept. 1st) and Soviet Union (on Sept. 17th). Neither of these was ever considered a "lesser" enemy. The fact that later the Soviet Union "changed sides" did not change much for Poland - it was more of an "internal affair" between the two enemy states. Poland did not become an "ally" to the Soviet Union. Poland was more of a potential trophy for Stalin than an ally. While in a pact with the Germans, Stalin could only count on getting half of the country. Now, especially after the Tehran conference - all of it was up for grabs. The fact that Russia defeated Germany wasn't really considered a victory for Poland. It was just a case of one enemy defeating another enemy. The point of the Warsaw Uprising (and the whole of the Tempest Operation) was to somehow ensure that Poland would be among the winners of WWII. As it happened, the uprising failed, and Poland did not regain full autonomy for many, many years to come.

Sure, but as I said before, I do not think there would have been a Poland left after 50 years of Nazi rule, so from that standpoint the Soviets were the lesser evil.  I do not know how the Polish home army could have a rational expectation of gaining anything politically from the uprising.  ISTM that they simply knew if the Nazis did not kill them the NKVD would.

The uprising tends to get dismissed in the West along the lines of "what were they thinking trying to fight the Germans without heavy weapons", but German accounts compare the fighting to that of Stalingrad (where of course the Russians were much better equipped) and that they lasted 63 days is a testament to their strength and courage.

[Greg]

I bow in reverence to the memory of all those Polish and Jewish people who fought against all odds for their liberty and honour!

Niech żyje Polska!

me too, except Jewish Polish people included too, lol
(i know you meant that)

[Maciek]

Re "what they were thinking": the general idea was to fight off the Germans as the Red Army was advancing, so as to prevent Stalin from taking full credit for "liberating" Warsaw. I don't think anyone ever expected Stalin would actually forbid his troops to move on. The guy actually made them stop their march towards Germany for more than a month!

The other thing no one was expecting, was Stalin's preventing Allied airborne supplies ("airdrops") from reaching the uprising. Well, he couldn't entirely prevent that but he did expressly forbid for any Allied planes to enter Soviet airspace. All of the airdrops (save one) had to be conducted from airbases in Italy.

As for the Soviet Union being an "enemy", that was of course a sort of oversimplification. The fact is that their winning meant the defeat of at least one enemy, so that's the "good" part. The head of the Polish Home Army, general Rowecki, phrased it perfectly: the Soviet Union was an ally of Polish allies - though not one of Poland (AFAIK, Stalin never ever acknowledged the existence of the Polish government in exile; he never treated Poland as an autonomous party in all of his international dealings which Poland was part of). Also, what happened later was not exactly an "occupation" of Poland. Well, in a way it was - the Red Army was stationed here for the next 45 years. And roughly until 1956 what was happening on Polish soil was nothing short of outright terror: people arrested, shot, tortured, sent to Soviet Gulags, and all that sort of thing. In the following years the terror element was somewhat slighter but it never disappeared entirely - though one could argue that it became less and less of an alien influence. But, on the whole, of the 3 countries involved: Germany, Russia and Poland, it is definitely Poland that came off worst. Now how's that for historical irony: the two aggressors were ultimately better off!

[PSmith08]

Sure, but as I said before, I do not think there would have been a Poland left after 50 years of Nazi rule, so from that standpoint the Soviets were the lesser evil.  I do not know how the Polish home army could have a rational expectation of gaining anything politically from the uprising.  ISTM that they simply knew if the Nazis did not kill them the NKVD would.

The uprising tends to get dismissed in the West along the lines of "what were they thinking trying to fight the Germans without heavy weapons", but German accounts compare the fighting to that of Stalingrad (where of course the Russians were much better equipped) and that they lasted 63 days is a testament to their strength and courage.

What do you mean, "the NKVD would." The NKVD did. The Soviets invaded in September 1939, and by April 1940, they had already begun the systematic murder of Polish officers - culminating in the Katyn forest murders. In a bizarre turn of fate, the Wehrmacht discovered the NKVD's mass graves as they progressed into the Soviet Union, and the Reich propagandists had the rare job of announcing genocide.

Saying the Soviets were better than the NSDAP forces is like saying death by asphyxiation is better than death by starvation: either way, you're dead.

[Maciek]

Patrick, thanks for that post. I can't even begin to explain the sort of reassuring solace it gives me to see Katyn mentioned by someone not writing directly from Poland. With Putin constantly denying anything ever happened it's easy to become paranoid.

[Florestan]

I see that you discriminate between polish and jewish
people.

Buy some glasses. Your sight is terribly wrong.

A distinction is not as discrimination. As was mentioned at the outset of the thread, there were two uprisings: in the (jewish) ghetto, and a later, general one.

Thank you for pointing out the context of my statement.