Author Topic: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director  (Read 9046 times)

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Offline jessop

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2016, 07:24:39 AM »
Isn't anyone who identifies as a resident/citizen of the USA American? Of course, Native Americans were there first and the people from other cultures came for various reasons and brought their own culture with them. One thing which I've been wondering (triggered a train of thought based on one earlier post in this thread) is when an immigrant of any kind loses the label of 'immigrant' (or foreigner etc.) and gains a kind of acceptance that allows them to be considered by others as 'American.' Is it through several generations of living in the USA? Is it through some kind of integration whereby one also has to leave behind their old culture and heritage?

I can tell you one thing and that is I am not American.

Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2016, 07:28:04 AM »
If you mean born in the US/American citizens, yes. If you mean, Hopi, Pueblo, etc. than no. But I assume the poster meant the first. Who do you think isn't American?

 :laugh: When it comes to claiming our cultural heroes, it pretty much comes down to those citizens born in America and for the most part, raised American as well. I laugh and get a little stupified when 'muh fellow Amuhricins' start claiming the likes of Schoenberg or Stravinsky as 'one of our own.'
 
There are a few musicians where the line seems to have been moved, though.

Most think of pianist Emanuel Ax as an American, while a look at his history...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Ax
...well, Manny is disqualified to run for U.S. president, anyway.

Painter Willem de Kooning came to the states when he was twenty-two, all formal training Dutch, and behind him, but is consistently called a ''Dutch American'' painter.

Composer / Conductor Lucas Foss is usually considered American, while he was a child prodigy born abroad who had some hefty early training there who immigrated to the U.S. with his family when he was fifteen, then continued his studies at Curtis, etc. With his more formative teen and conservatory years having been in the U.S. and his earliest surviving [or published, anyway] works written after that training and those being in a very ''American'' mannered neoclassical style, I and most others do consider him 'an American composer.' But, decide for yourself...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukas_Foss

Some other considered 'American' composers immigrated later in their lives, with all their formative years and training having been while still abroad [ex. Ernst Bloch] I put that kind of background history in the 'Schoenberg / Stravinsky / Vittorio Riete, et alia bin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Bloch#Biography

The claiming of our cultural heroes seems to have [some] movable lines.

I suppose the only time it would be absolutely critical a musician be born in the U.S. would be if they wanted to run for President.  :)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 08:03:47 AM by Monsieur Croche »
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Offline jessop

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2016, 07:33:19 AM »
I wonder....is Coates (one of my absolutely favourite supposedly American composers) regarded as American?

Offline Brian

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2016, 07:44:31 AM »
I wonder....is Coates (one of my absolutely favourite supposedly American composers) regarded as American?
I thought he was a Brit! Oh wait you mean Gloria, don't you?

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2016, 07:49:00 AM »
Isn't anyone who identifies as a resident/citizen of the USA American? Of course, Native Americans were there first and the people from other cultures came for various reasons and brought their own culture with them. One thing which I've been wondering (triggered a train of thought based on one earlier post in this thread) is when an immigrant of any kind loses the label of 'immigrant' (or foreigner etc.) and gains a kind of acceptance that allows them to be considered by others as 'American.' Is it through several generations of living in the USA? Is it through some kind of integration whereby one also has to leave behind their old culture and heritage?

I can tell you one thing and that is I am not American.
I would say that you probably need to either live here most/all of your life or be a citizen (which can be odd if you were born here and soon moved away). This is why some composers who fled Europe their country can be considered American even if they were raised and trained elsewhere. It is a bit of slippery slope though. For example, Rachmaninov would usually be considered Russian, though he lived the second half of his life outside the US. He became an American citizen only shortly before he died.

Technically, an immigrant loses that status when they become a citizen. Whether it will be accepted by the community is a different question, probably linked to how easily you fit in to the community in which you live (and certain characteristics of that community). Xenophobia exists everywhere unfortunately.

On Coates, you mean Gloria Coates I assume? She is American, though she has lived abroad quite some time. If she still has an American passport, then it is a slam dunk. If she doesn't or would claim her adopted land, then it becomes more murky.
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Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2016, 07:49:27 AM »
I wonder....is Coates (one of my absolutely favourite supposedly American composers) regarded as American?

A-yep. She moved to Germany at age twenty-nine, all her formative and upper level formal training taken and done in the states, with very American teachers, too.

I have not seen any item saying she has ever given up her American citizenship, having taken another, or having a dual citizenship. It is very likely she 'stays' American, and has been an official long-term resident in Germany.


Best regards.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 07:54:33 AM by Monsieur Croche »
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Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #46 on: January 28, 2016, 08:10:37 AM »
I can tell you one thing and that is I am not American.

Nope, our Antipodean colleague, your summer is our winter and vice versa :)

You are bound to compose music deploying a lot of inversions, then, right?
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Offline Todd

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #47 on: January 28, 2016, 09:05:09 AM »
If you mean born in the US/American citizens, yes. If you mean, Hopi, Pueblo, etc. than no. But I assume the poster meant the first. Who do you think isn't American?



When I see Native American capitalized the way it was capitalized, I think Native American as that phrase is commonly used today.  I assume you are aware of the usage.


The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Offline Christo

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2016, 11:37:48 AM »
whose name is pronounced Yahp van ZVAY-den
Yaahp vahn ZWAY-dun, I'd say.  ;)
… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2016, 11:50:24 AM »
If you really want to incense the English to the point where they begin to sputter, tell them you think Handel is a German composer. >:D
~ I'm all for personal expression; it just has to express something to me. ~

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #50 on: January 28, 2016, 11:52:42 AM »
Not a "barbaric Yaahp"?
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline jessop

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2016, 12:02:12 PM »
If you really want to incense the English to the point where they begin to sputter, tell them you think Handel is a German composer. >:D
:laugh: oh how very entertaining that will be!

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2016, 12:09:05 PM »


When I see Native American capitalized the way it was capitalized, I think Native American as that phrase is commonly used today.  I assume you are aware of the usage.



He's an Aussie - one has to give them some slack. :)
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Offline Todd

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #53 on: January 28, 2016, 12:14:43 PM »
He's an Aussie - one has to give them some slack. :)



Huh?
The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Offline Brian

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #54 on: January 28, 2016, 12:18:09 PM »


Huh?
He's referring to ComposerOfAvantGarde, who's 18 (IIRC) and Australian.

Offline Todd

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #55 on: January 28, 2016, 12:29:32 PM »
He's referring to ComposerOfAvantGarde, who's 18 (IIRC) and Australian.


Yeah, I get that, but I read English language publications from all over the English speaking world and the phrase Native American is used the same way in all of them, though less frequently in UK/Australian/NZ publications than in the US.
The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Offline Christo

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2016, 12:29:51 PM »
If you really want to incense the English to the point where they begin to sputter, tell them you think Handel is a German composer. >:D
Händel, you mean.
… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Offline jessop

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2016, 01:16:00 PM »
He's an Aussie - one has to give them some slack. :)
Aussies* invented slack!

*that is, Aussies in the most common sense of the word (based more or less on the stereotype), but more specifically it is a philosophy...a way of life....just ask Bruce [g'day Bruce! How are ya Bruce! &c.]

Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2016, 01:26:20 PM »
Aussies* invented slack!

*that is, Aussies in the most common sense of the word (based more or less on the stereotype), but more specifically it is a philosophy...a way of life....just ask Bruce [g'day Bruce! How are ya Bruce! &c.]
Ha! I was once trying to imitate an Aussie accent (without much success, mind you), when I was told by your fellow countrymen that I was speaking too formal and that the Aussie way of speaking is lazy. I needed to be lazier in my speech (ya instead of you, stop pronouncing last letter(s) in a word, etc). Then they told me to drink more beer and try again later! :)
Be kind to your fellow posters!!

Offline (poco) Sforzando

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Re: Jaap van Zweden, new NYPO director
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2016, 01:45:07 PM »
Aussies* invented slack!

*that is, Aussies in the most common sense of the word (based more or less on the stereotype), but more specifically it is a philosophy...a way of life....just ask Bruce [g'day Bruce! How are ya Bruce! &c.]

Do you mean they call everyone Bruce?
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

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