Author Topic: Florestan´s Romantic Salon  (Read 9469 times)

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Offline Cato

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2016, 03:54:02 AM »
"If the resonating ideas of the Enlightenment were reason, truth, nature, order, and objectivity, those of the coming Romantics would be the subjective, the instinctive, the uncanny, the sublime, and nature in its great and terrible face. As one essential Romantic writer, E. T. A. Hoffmann, put it, “Beethoven’s music sets in motion the mechanism of fear, of awe, of horror, of suffering, and wakens just that infinite longing which is the essence of Romanticism.” The Aufklärung looked to a radiant future of social and scientific perfection; the Romantics looked to the fabled, mysterious, unreachable past. The eighteenth century longed for freedom and happiness. The nineteenth century was caught up not in longing toward an end but in longing for the delirium and pain of longing itself."

Beethoven: Anguish and Triumph by Jan Swafford

Very nice!

It has become a cliche' among historians that the earthquake in Lisbon (November 1, 1755) also shook the Enlightenment, and thereby catalyzed the Romantic movement.  This is not entirely true, of course, but is not entirely wrong either.

Becoming conscious of Nature's chaotic essence, the creators, intellectuals, etc. in the Enlightenment were undoubtedly affected by the event.  However, consider that Goethe was only 6 years old at the time, and other Romantics were not yet born.  (e.g.  Proto-Romantic  ???  Mozart was born a year later.)
"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Online Jo498

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #101 on: October 31, 2016, 04:39:22 AM »
And Goethe was mostly critical of the younger generation of romantics... in German cultural history we are taught Lessing, Goethe and Schiller as "Klassiker". This stuff is always far more overlapping and complicated than the textbook clichés.
Beethoven seems clearly on the "enlightenment" side with Fidelio, 9th symphony and his staunch stance against Metternich's restauration. (There is an interpretation of the 9th symphony that takes Beethoven's remark about a "state of despair" (verzweiflungsvoller Zustand), depicted in the first movement as his take on the post-1815 restauration and apparently he was sometimes so outspoken in the pub that friends feared he might get into trouble with Metternich's secret police.)
And Hoffmann called composers we don't think of as "romantic" at all romantic, basically what we call Viennese classicism, namely Haydn, Mozart (and Gluck for his late operas).

Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Cato

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #102 on: October 31, 2016, 05:52:03 AM »
And Goethe was mostly critical of the younger generation of romantics... in German cultural history we are taught Lessing, Goethe and Schiller as "Klassiker". This stuff is always far more overlapping and complicated than the textbook clichés.

And Hoffmann called composers we don't think of as "romantic" at all romantic, basically what we call Viennese classicism, namely Haydn, Mozart (and Gluck for his late operas).

Very interesting, for my professors taught us that Goethe's Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers, along with things like Schiller's Die Räuber were some of the first shots to announce the arrival of Romanticism.

And I think Hoffmann was not wrong in his judgment: and he would know of what he speaks, (one would think): Hoffmann himself is seen as The Ultimate Romantic!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 07:03:10 AM by Cato »
"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Online Jo498

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2016, 06:24:09 AM »
You are not wrong, but these early "Sturm und Drang" pieces ("Goetz von Berlichingen" (about a nobleman supporting the peasant uprisings in 16th century Germany) is another early Goethe play often classified thus) are exceptions to some extent.
At least Goethe and Schiller wrote rather different stuff later on, especially Schiller is also often closely connected to Kantian philosophy and aesthetics, all still parts of "Aufklärung". For this younger generation (like Schiller *1759) the terreur in the aftermath of the French Revolution apparently had a similar function to the Lisbon desastre for the older enlightenment thinkers, but of course more concerning the political philosophy and it tempered their attitudes. The fight for liberty in William Tell is considerably more level-headed than the enthusiasm of "Die Räuber" and mostly against wilful tyrrany.

Goethe is really hard to classify. In the famous encounter with Beethoven at Teplitz he almost seems like representing the Ancién régime; after all he was secretary/minister at the Weimar court. He really disliked some of the younger romantics (like Kleist, I think) but admired others (like Lord Byron). In his natural philosophy (plants, anatomy and colors) he was more of a romantic, arguing against reductionist mechanistic philosophy. He probably also held some sort of spinozist pantheism (which would place him closer to the Romantics than to the atheist/skeptic (Hobbes, Hume, LaMettrie etc.) or deist (Locke, Kant) enlightenment philosophers. A truly universal mind but very hard to pin down.

You are certainly right about Hoffmann being an archromantic himself (and a somewhat tragic figure who had to keep working as law clerk because he could not establish himself permanently as music director somewhere and apparently drank himself to death).
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Florestan

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #104 on: November 01, 2016, 12:55:49 AM »
My theory is that "romanticism" (small r intentionally) is first and foremost a state of mind and a penchant of the heart, a psychological predisposition, a forma mentis, a Weltanschauung if you will which is rather inborn and little, if at all, dependent on external factors. One does not become a romantic, one is born as such; the place, the time, the general stage of civilization and the milieu one is born into can surely stiffle or encourage the latent romanticism but they can neither produce nor extinguish it altogether. One does not even have to be an artist or philosopher in order to be a romantic.

I submit to your consideration the following quotes, which imho are as good a romantic / Romantic ars poetica as anything coming from the pen of Victor Hugo or Berlioz

Et quod nunc ratio est impetus ante fuit. - Ovid, Remedia amoris, 10.

Si vis me flere, dolendum est primum ipsi tibi. - Horace, Ars poetica, 102.
Delight and liberty, the simple creed of childhood. - William Wordsworth

Online Ken B

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #105 on: November 01, 2016, 08:07:07 AM »

Et quod nunc ratio est impetus ante fuit. - Ovid, Remedia amoris, 10.


Lot of fuiting in Ovid. At it like rabbits in most of his stuff.
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set him on fire and he is warm for life.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #106 on: November 01, 2016, 08:26:03 AM »
Lot of fuiting in Ovid. At it like rabbits in most of his stuff.

Huh?
Delight and liberty, the simple creed of childhood. - William Wordsworth

Offline Cato

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #107 on: November 01, 2016, 08:35:11 AM »
Huh?

A Latin pun on "fuit" (has been) with the obscene verb "futuo" which I will not translate.  (The verb does appear in certain poets.)
"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #108 on: November 01, 2016, 08:41:39 AM »
I was pretty sure.  :D

A Latin pun on "fuit" (has been) with the obscene verb "futuo" which I will not translate.  (The verb does appear in certain poets.)

You don't have to translate it. The Romanian verb "a fute" comes directly from "futuo".  :laugh:

Delight and liberty, the simple creed of childhood. - William Wordsworth

Offline Cato

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #109 on: November 01, 2016, 10:32:56 AM »
I was pretty sure.  :D

You don't have to translate it. The Romanian verb "a fute" comes directly from "futuo".  :laugh:

My first Romanian verb...and look what it is!  ;)

Ken B. has created a rather "eroteric" pun for us!  ???
"Now who taught ye t' be playin' patty fingers in the holy water?"

- Barry Fitzgerald to John Wayne in  The Quiet Man.

Online Ken B

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Re: Florestan´s Romantic Salon
« Reply #110 on: November 01, 2016, 11:54:04 AM »
I was pretty sure.  :D

You don't have to translate it. The Romanian verb "a fute" comes directly from "futuo".  :laugh:

Live and learn. I had just assumed you were just misspelling flute in those PMs ...

 ;)
Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day. Set him on fire and he is warm for life.

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