Author Topic: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?  (Read 5603 times)

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Offline Monsieur Croche

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2016, 12:39:20 PM »
"So how are you going to spell his name?" ~ Ghost Sonata

Not too sure! How do you suggest? Like 'Miaskovsky' (my preference) or 'Myaskovsky' (the CD company's preference). I think I'd go for 'Skryabin' but I'll gave to do what they want as it should be a uniform spelling.

There has not been, to date, any one set and standard way to render spellings of Russian names when they are set from Cyrillic into the European / Latin alphabet, and of course further inconsistencies proliferate as the names are put into the Latin alphabet and set as the best approximate homonym within how a particular language's sounds work, varying from country to country.

...Russian names then put into the Latin alphabet are inconsistent from country to country -- just as place names are altered from the original language into languages of different countries.

In scores or other writings in German, "Igor Strawinsky" has always made me grin, even though I know that is a proper rendering of the name with the Latin alphabet in German.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2016, 07:58:34 PM by Monsieur Croche »
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Offline king ubu

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2016, 12:47:00 PM »
Skrjabin

But in my list I type Scriabin for consistency ... underrated or not, who am I to tell? (Not in this house, I think.)
Es wollt ein meydlein grasen gan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Und do die roten röslein stan:
Fick mich, lieber Peter!
Fick mich mehr, du hast dein ehr.
Kannstu nit, ich wills dich lern.
Fick mich, lieber Peter!

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ComposerOfAvantGarde

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2016, 01:14:53 PM »
["So how are you going t o spell his name?" ~ Ghost Sonata

quote author=vandermolen link=topic=26101.msg990672#msg990672 date=1471470353]
Not too sure! How do you suggest? Like 'Miaskovsky' (my preference) or 'Myaskovsky' (the CD company's preference). I think I'd go for 'Skryabin' but I'll gave to do what they want as it should be a uniform spelling.


There has not been, to date, any one set and standard way to render spellings of Russian names when they are set from Cyrillic into the European / Latin alphabet, and of course further inconsistencies proliferate as the names are put into the Latin alphabet and set as the best approximate homonym within how a particular language's sounds work, varying from country to country.

...Russian names then put into the Latin alphabet are inconsistent from country to country -- just as place names are altered from the original language into languages of different countries.

In scores or other writings in German, "Igor Strawinsky" has always made me grin, even though I know that is a proper rendering of the name with the Latin alphabet in German.
Reminds me of the famous 19th century pianist composer Szopen.

Online vandermolen

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2016, 10:16:08 PM »
Can readily understand why a CD company would want consistency within their own product line.  If Grove sez Skryabin it's good enough for me.  I often marveled at the French Scriabine , until I realized they must add the 'e' to make certain the 'n' is pronounced. Now Miaskovsky, there's an underrated composer for Mr. Simula, and whose cause deserves taking up.  In the forties in the U.S. he would be mentioned in the same breath as Rach and Tchaik.  Now even classical fans don't recognize his name.  Better to have been loved and lost? Unsure about that...

Didja' see the article about Nikolai Fedorovich Federov in the Jan. issue of Harper's?  Can scan and send if you're interested. I believe there is a kind of quintessentially Russian, cosmological link between him and Skryabin.
No, never saw the article. I have seen two live Miaskovsky symphonies in the UK in the last ten years which is better than nothing I guess. He was more popular in the West during the 40s due to the 'Grand Alliance' (as Churchill named it) or 'Anti-Hitler Coalition' (as the USSR more accurately called it). This was when the Chicago SO commissioned Symphony 21 from Miaskovsky - one of his finest, most concise and eloquent scores. Morton Gould's recording with the Chicago SO has just been issued on CD for the first time in a Chicago SO boxed set. Sorry, mustn't derail the thread.
I have been listening a lot to Symphony 1 by Skryabin recently and liking it more and more notwithstanding reservations about the vocal finale and I'm getting to appreciate the Poem of Ecstasy more too.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 10:18:36 PM by vandermolen »
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline uli90

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2016, 10:39:23 AM »
Yes, veeery underrated  :-[

Offline Androcles

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2016, 02:04:19 PM »
I think his influence on a whole generation of Russian composers is underrated, although its probably fair to say his influence was largely within Russia.

His music, largely for the piano with some orchestral works of note, perhaps is not. The earlier sonatas, preludes etc are eminently listenable, and fit well with other piano pieces of the period. The later works are more experimental - and will probably not garner a particularly audience despite their influence. Of the orchestral works only the later ones are worth listening to (Symphony No.1, for example is pretty appalling). They are original and intense, but a little too mystical (I mean closely connected with Scriabin's very distinct worldview) to really light the imagination of a very large number of listeners.

Scriabin is not to be passed over, but he is not as significant either in terms of his influence or expressive power as Alban Berg, who in my view is probably more underrated.

In fact there is a whole set of Russian futurists who took the explorations further and are probably equally deserving of performance. Unfortunately, they are not so familiar as they were suppressed by the Soviet state. Roslavets (quite a major composer who developed his own version of the 12 tone system, influenced by Scriabin), Obukhov (even crazier), Wyshnegradsky, Protopopov (heavy metal piano sonatas), Feinberg (piano music very similar to that of Scriabin), Zaderatsky (major piano composer), Mossolov (futurist) and others. Its in this artistic melee that more famous composers such as Prokofiev and Shostakovich developed and found their distinctive voices.
And, moreover, it is art in its most general and comprehensive form that is here discussed, for the dialogue embraces everything connected with it, from its greatest object, the state, to its least, the embellishment of sensuous existence.

Offline Jo498

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2016, 09:48:31 PM »
Berg is rated very highly, I'd think. Certainly by far the most "popular" of the Viennese school.

As for Scriabin: He ist MUCH better known than any of the Russian "Futurists" you mention. I'd say he is closer to overrated than underrated compared to many of those or also Miaskovsky or about a dozen non-Russion early 20th century composers, e.g. Busoni.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Androcles

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2016, 02:11:42 AM »
Berg is rated very highly, I'd think. Certainly by far the most "popular" of the Viennese school.

As for Scriabin: He ist MUCH better known than any of the Russian "Futurists" you mention. I'd say he is closer to overrated than underrated compared to many of those or also Miaskovsky or about a dozen non-Russion early 20th century composers, e.g. Busoni.

Wrt Scriabin, I totally agree. Those other composers, Russian or otherwise are probably just as worthy.

Personally I think that Berg is a good deal better than Schoenberg, and possibly up there with Mahler. Pretty much everything he wrote was a game-changing masterpiece in the genre he wrote it. Probably more influential than either on later music (I know thats debatable). I'm not sure the reception in the classical world really reflects that kind of view of him. Where I live he almost never gets performed.
And, moreover, it is art in its most general and comprehensive form that is here discussed, for the dialogue embraces everything connected with it, from its greatest object, the state, to its least, the embellishment of sensuous existence.

Offline Cato

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2016, 04:47:57 AM »
I think his influence on a whole generation of Russian composers is underrated, although its probably fair to say his influence was largely within Russia.

In fact there is a whole set of Russian futurists who took the explorations further and are probably equally deserving of performance. Unfortunately, they are not so familiar as they were suppressed by the Soviet state. Roslavets (quite a major composer who developed his own version of the 12 tone system, influenced by Scriabin), Obukhov (even crazier), Wyshnegradsky, Protopopov (heavy metal piano sonatas), Feinberg (piano music very similar to that of Scriabin), Zaderatsky (major piano composer), Mossolov (futurist) and others. Its in this artistic melee that more famous composers such as Prokofiev and Shostakovich developed and found their distinctive voices.

Nice summary: here on GMG there is a member who unfortunately does not have the time to visit very often, but he is also a composer of impressive ability, whose works show a Scriabinian echo: Luke Ottevanger.
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Offline relm1

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2018, 02:56:21 PM »
I've been listening to Scriabin's No. 3 (NYPO/Sinopoli) and thinking, what a great and underrated composer this is.  So unique and very interesting musically.  Too bad he died so young.

Offline Cato

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2018, 03:20:55 PM »
I've been listening to Scriabin's No. 3 (NYPO/Sinopoli) and thinking, what a great and underrated composer this is.  So unique and very interesting musically.  Too bad he died so young.

Amen to both parts of your comment!   8)

Do you know of Alexander Nemtin's realization of Scriabin's sketches for the Prefatory Action/Mysterium ?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/V4YSysUn-Bk" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/V4YSysUn-Bk</a>

"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

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Offline relm1

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2018, 04:32:00 AM »
Amen to both parts of your comment!   8)

Do you know of Alexander Nemtin's realization of Scriabin's sketches for the Prefatory Action/Mysterium ?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/V4YSysUn-Bk" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/V4YSysUn-Bk</a>

Know it?  I was at the world premiere!  I'll never forget the sight of the diminutive Vladimir Ashkenazy standing in front of 100's of musicians and torrents of sounds for chorus, organ, and orchestra.  The work ended and there was total silence.  He quietly looked to see if anyone in the audience is still left.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2018, 03:04:02 PM by relm1 »

Offline San Antone

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2018, 05:11:54 AM »
Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?

No.

Offline Cato

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #53 on: August 11, 2018, 05:25:18 AM »
I was at the world premiere!  I'll never forget the sight of the diminutive Vladimir Ashkenazy standing in front of 100's of musicians and torrents of sounds for chorus, organ, and orchestra.  The work ended and their was total silence.  He quietly looked to see if anyone in the audience is still left.

Yes, I recall your story now!  It must have been quite an experience!
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline kyjo

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #54 on: August 11, 2018, 07:21:12 AM »
I think his symphonies are underrated. They're hardly ever played on US concert programs (though The Poem of Ecstasy makes an occasional appearance).
"Music is enough for a lifetime, but a lifetime is not enough for music" - Sergei Rachmaninoff

Offline Christo

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #55 on: August 11, 2018, 08:05:31 AM »
Errr, no, not really.  ;)
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Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2018, 11:05:53 AM »
Scriabin suffers no identity problems among folks who recognize where the greatness lies in his output: his solo piano music. It's no mistake that his piano output outnumbers his symphonic output by a titanic margin.

Scriabin's symphonic output has its merits, especially Poem, but the truest indicators of his genius are to be found in his piano music.

For Scriabin, solo piano was no byway...it was where his light shone brightest.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline relm1

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #57 on: August 11, 2018, 03:25:19 PM »
Scriabin suffers no identity problems among folks who recognize where the greatness lies in his output: his solo piano music. It's no mistake that his piano output outnumbers his symphonic output by a titanic margin.

Scriabin's symphonic output has its merits, especially Poem, but the truest indicators of his genius are to be found in his piano music.

For Scriabin, solo piano was no byway...it was where his light shone brightest.

But some of us hear his piano output as symphonic. 

Offline Dancing Divertimentian

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2018, 08:52:44 AM »
But some of us hear his piano output as symphonic. 

If I were one of those (thankfully very few) rabid HIPsters on the board I'd be screaming all sorts of foul!! ;D But hey, whatever turns you on. :) Although, I have to say, I can't think of another body of piano works LESS suited to the orchestra than Scriabin's.
Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

Offline Cato

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Re: Do You Think Scriabin is Underrated?
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2018, 09:22:48 AM »
If I were one of those (thankfully very few) rabid HIPsters on the board I'd be screaming all sorts of foul!! ;D But hey, whatever turns you on. :) Although, I have to say, I can't think of another body of piano works LESS suited to the orchestra than Scriabin's.

In my younger days, I toyed with the idea of orchestrating the Ninth Sonata, but almost immediately - upon looking at my score of it - I saw all kinds of problematic questions, even on the opening page  (e.g. the descending figure in the left hand in bars 5-7, which adds a note every time it appears, from 3 16th-notes to 6 32nd-notes: should those resonate or not, and if so, for how long?).  To be sure, the problems are not insoluble, but...  $:)
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