Author Topic: Louis Couperin  (Read 4456 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2017, 07:00:56 AM »
I see. But I like his Froberger. It's a total outlier among recordings. The Couperin sounds much more like what other great harpsichordists do. And it's unmistakably French in style (the music and his approach). But with Froberger, he doesn't try for much drama. The Froberger is so specific.

Maybe, I'm  not sure. Certainly the second LC is dramatic, the first I'm not sure, I don't like it so I never listen.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2018, 10:56:40 AM »


Extremely sweet performances by Andrew Lawrence King. A part of the interest comes from the harp effects , highly contrasted timbres and textures and volumes. The harp can produce a teardrop tone which makes the Tombeau for Blancrocher verge on the maudlin, and this is sometimes melodramatically contrasted with rougher timbres. The liaison between notes is sometimes quite legato, producing a sing song effect. The sustain of the instrument shrouds everything in a warm glow.

Not really my cup of tea I don't think.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 10:58:59 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6965
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2018, 11:57:28 AM »
Extremely sweet performances by Andrew Lawrence King. A part of the interest comes from the harp effects , highly contrasted timbres and textures and volumes. The harp can produce a teardrop tone which makes the Tombeau for Blancrocher verge on the maudlin, and this is sometimes melodramatically contrasted with rougher timbres. The liaison between notes is sometimes quite legato, producing a sing song effect. The sustain of the instrument shrouds everything in a warm glow.

Not really my cup of tea I don't think.

The conclusion is what I expected.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2018, 06:46:38 AM »


This is van Asperen’s first Louis Couperin CD. I think it is particularly well recorded on an attractive Dutch instrument; the three cds on Aeolus all use French harpsichords. He moves the music forward, but without preventing us from savouring the resonances and colours of the instrument. His style is full of contrasts of mood and tone and touch and texture. Asperen always plays here with great vitality, and at his best there’s a tremendous feeling of jubilation. The performances are “wide awake”, there’s not a sense of the oneiric. There is often a sense of intense focus, the feeling of a man really engaged with getting to the bottom of the poetry in the music - this is an Asperen gift which I very much admire - it’s one of his main strengths as a musician IMO. His approach makes the playing sound effortless, but no one could say he’s distant. Altogether a great recording despite the unidiomatic harpsichord.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 06:51:05 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2348
  • Location: usa
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 02:03:41 AM »
this is interesting.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 06:39:31 AM »
this is interesting.

I thought his Chopin mazurkas were OK, light and fresh.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6965
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2018, 11:23:01 AM »
this is interesting.

Louis Couperin on piano? What for?
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2348
  • Location: usa
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2018, 11:49:10 AM »
Louis Couperin on piano? What for?
I wonder how many ways a young pianist can distinguish themselves these days? Maybe some will say there's always room for more Chopin but the field is pretty crowded. 

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2018, 08:11:32 AM »
Re the Louis Couperin on this LP



According to discogs it consists of the Blancrocher Tombeau and a suite in D

https://www.discogs.com/Gustav-Leonhardt-French-Harpsichord-Masterpieces/release/5620890

I believe the suite was transferred onto this CD



In fact, all but the D major suite was issued on this CD, which is, unfortunately, the one that I have, though I do get the pavane as some sort of consolation



If anyone has the D major suite, could they let me have it?  I'll swop it for the pavane.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 09:51:05 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6965
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2018, 09:33:18 AM »
Re the Louis Couperin on this LP


According to discogs it consists of the Blancrocher Tombeau and a suite in D

https://www.discogs.com/Gustav-Leonhardt-French-Harpsichord-Masterpieces/release/5620890

I believe the suite was transferred onto this CD



In fact, all but the D major suite was issued on this CD, which is, unfortunately, the one that I have, though I do get the pavane as some sort of consolation



If anyone has the D major suite, could they let me have it?  I'll swop it for the pavane.


The one you own is also the one I own. I have ordered the other one (with the D major suite) from an AMP seller.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2018, 12:35:43 PM »
Here's a very good Leonhardt discography

http://users.libero.it/enrico.gustav/Leonhardt/home.htm
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2018, 09:13:57 AM »
<a href="https://youtube.com/v/T591jCiCG28" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://youtube.com/v/T591jCiCG28</a>

This is Roland Götz playing a pavane by Chambonnières, one or two things by D'Anglebert and a Louis Couperin suite and Tombeau. As far as I can see it’s never been off LP, which is a shame because it’s not without interest.

Oh there’s a bit of François Couperin and Rameau too.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 09:17:15 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6965
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2018, 03:11:11 AM »
<a href="https://youtube.com/v/T591jCiCG28" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://youtube.com/v/T591jCiCG28</a>

This is Roland Götz playing a pavane by Chambonnières, one or two things by D'Anglebert and a Louis Couperin suite and Tombeau. As far as I can see it’s never been off LP, which is a shame because it’s not without interest.

Oh there’s a bit of François Couperin and Rameau too.


"May contain traces of Francois Couperin" - allergy sufferers are warned. :)

Recorded before 1980, so concerning informed style of performance Götz was indeed ahead of his time.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2348
  • Location: usa
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2018, 02:17:23 PM »
this is interesting.
In the end, I did not enjoy this. Not only does he find it hard to resist dynamics, but I can’t help but but feel that he doesn’t get LC. For me, this is too sunny and lacking intensity. For piano, I believe a different approach is warrented.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2018, 09:38:59 PM »
Here's Luc Beausejour playing a famous bit on a modern piano, not my cup of tea.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/5sNBHmpnnVA" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/5sNBHmpnnVA</a>
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2348
  • Location: usa
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2018, 12:40:39 AM »
Here's Luc Beausejour playing a famous bit on a modern piano, not my cup of tea.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/5sNBHmpnnVA" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/5sNBHmpnnVA</a>
Video unavailable now...It's really tricky pulling off early baroque. L Couperin is atmospheric music. Seems like some pianists don't take it that way?

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6965
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2018, 01:40:15 AM »
Video unavailable now...It's really tricky pulling off early baroque. L Couperin is atmospheric music. Seems like some pianists don't take it that way?


Also for me. I have searched it on you tube, but can't find it. Did he upload it himself?
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline Mandryka

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9810
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2018, 01:44:12 AM »
It’s from this



Quote from: Luc Beauséjour here https://www.analekta.com/en/albums/beausejour-moments-baroques-au-piano/
The repertoire on this recording was written for harpsichord during the Baroque period, generally considered to span the years 1600 to 1750. While many pianists have played Bach, Scarlatti, Handel, Rameau, and even Couperin and Froberger, few harpsichordists have come to the defence of the harpsichord repertoire on the modern piano. The idea was born during a meeting with Analekta president, François Mario Labbé. I was submitting some recording proposals for harpsichord and clavichord, and he asked me, “Why not make a CD of piano music?” Somewhat taken aback, I asked for a few days to think about it. Not long after, I suggested a program that would not only include harpsichord repertoire already covered by pianists–Bach, Scarlatti, and Handel– but would also feature some lesser-known works.

In compiling this program, I played for several friends on various occasions to get their opinions. After reading through quite a number of works, I selected those that appealed to me most and that I felt worked best on the piano. Some pieces borrowed from the harpsichord repertoire sound very good on the piano, but I quickly realized that not all Baroque repertoire lends itself to the modern instrument with equal satisfaction. Highly ornamented works are generally less pleasing on piano and more diffi cult to perform than on harpsichord. Similarly, contrapuntal works or works in a polyphonic style also require a great deal of adaptation. This is due not to how the piano produces sound (hammered strings) but rather to the nature of that sound and to the characteristics of the piano’s different registers. For example, creating defi nition for the inner voices of a Bach fugue is much harder on a piano than on a harpsichord. The thicker texture of the piano’s tenor and bass registers necessarily reduces the clarity of the music.

One other thing I soon noticed was the essential need to produce a wide range of dynamics within a piece. The fugue again provides the best example. On the harpsichord, the lack of dynamics is compensated for by its timbre, which provides great clarity in all voices. However, though all the voices of a fugue should have equal prominence, it is necessary on the piano to bring out one or more of them over the others so as not to obscure or flatten the polyphony.

One of the obvious differences between the harpsichord and the piano is the duration of sound; contrary to what one might think, however, this has a limited infl uence on phrasing and on how the music plays out. On the other hand, the piano’s pedal can be put to interesting use in many cases; if it doesn’t muddle the harmonies, the pedal can produce marvellous “watercolour” effects. I am often asked how harpsichordists play legato on their instrument without a sustain pedal. The answer is found in, among other sources, Rameau’s ornamentation table, in which he illustrates how to extend the resonance of one note over the next–which he called surlegato, or “overlegato”. This technique connects the notes and even makes the fi rst note sound louder than the second, since the fi rst’s resonance slightly covers the second’s attack. There are many examples in Bach’s two-voice works in which he directs the performer to extend the sound of certain notes to increase the harpsichord’s resonance.

To make a plucked string instrument speak expressively, the performer must use different articulations, just as a singer must enunciate consonants. These articulations consist of short bits of silence inserted between notes and that make certain notes stand out, creating a kind of hierarchy that helps listeners to understand the music. The piano and clavichord take a different approach, however. There is less emphasis on the notion of articulation, and musical expression is created more through contrasts, accents, crescendos and decrescendos–in short through a wide range of nuances and colours.

To give the harpsichord a pleasing sound, it is often necessary to incorporate subtle arpeggiation, slight offsets between bass and treble, or clear arpeggios in chords. On the piano, however, arpeggiation is required much less frequently. As a harpsichordist, it has been fascinating to play a program of harpsichord works on the piano. It has shown me that certain works can benefi t from the clarity imparted by the techniques of a plucked string instrument. They work much better when approached by way of the 17th and 18th centuries rather than the 19th and 20th centuries. On the other hand, some pieces, like Louis Couperin’s Pavane in F-sharp minor or the first part of the work by Böhm on this recording, lend themselves to a freer style and, in my opinion, must be rethought in truly pianistic terms.

This robustly pianistinc approach to the music seems to me very wrongheaded! Is this really true?

Quote
It is necessary on the piano to bring out one or more of them [the voices of a fugue] over the others so as not to obscure or flatten the polyphony.

I suppose it would sound flat if he refused himself rhythmic rubato and ornamentation.

Or this? There’s more colour possibilities in a clavichord or old harpsichord than a modern piano!

Quote
There is less emphasis on the notion of articulation, and musical expression is created more through contrasts, accents, crescendos and decrescendos–in short through a wide range of nuances and colours.

And I wonder what exactly  “freer style” means? Style like a Chopin nocturne?

Quote
On the other hand, some pieces, like Louis Couperin’s Pavane in F-sharp minor or the first part of the work by Böhm on this recording, lend themselves to a freer style and, in my opinion, must be rethought in truly pianistic terms.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2018, 01:59:01 AM by Mandryka »
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Offline (: premont :)

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 6965
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2018, 02:47:41 AM »
I have listened to the clips from this recording on the JPC site. I am immediately offput by the sound of this piano (or maybe rather the sound of his touch) and the equal tuning. About his style of performance I find it very conventional and not particularly pianistic nor re-thought, So even if I agree with much of his comments, I do not quite hear the results in his playing. You only need to compare with Rübsam's or Virginia Black's piano recordings (both excellent organ or harpsichord players too), which both have a very distinct and revelatory individual style.

It is true, that one on a piano often needs to emphasize the middle voices discretely in a fugue in order to make them stand out from muddy piano sound.

And this:

Quote Beausejour: The piano and clavichord take a different approach, however. There is less emphasis on the notion of articulation, and musical expression is created more through contrasts, accents, crescendos and decrescendos–in short through a wide range of nuances and colours.

is also true.
Tiden læger alle sår,
heldigt nok at tiden går.

Offline milk

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2348
  • Location: usa
Re: Louis Couperin
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2018, 11:03:43 PM »
I recall enjoying Alan Feinberg, Francesco Tristano and Andrew Rangell's approach to early English baroque. I have to go back and see why I responded to it. Does it seem that early baroque is trickier for pianists than later? There are countless fine performances of Bach and Handel. On another note, just listening again to Skip Sempe's Couperin and it's electric. It's like on fire! Maybe it's just not possible to do that on a piano.