Author Topic: Jörg Widmann's Wiedersehen  (Read 2017 times)

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Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Jörg Widmann's Wiedersehen
« on: October 20, 2016, 07:05:35 AM »
A thread for Jörg Widman... is he popular enough for that to make sense? Here's the kick-off, if so.


Classical CD Of The Week: Jörg Widmann, A 21st Century Berg Concerto


http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/19/classical-cd-of-the-week-jorg-widmann-a-21st-century-berg-concerto/#f5fb33b73a01


Quote
Jörg Widman’s Violin Concerto (reviewed in concert here) is a lyrical tour-de-force in which the violinist, dedicatee Christian Tetzlaff, who has performed the world premiere in 2007 in Essen, doesn’t get to take the bow of the strings for 30 minutes. You can hear the composer’s will to make contemporary violin concerto with every chance to enter the repertoire. You enjoy the success of it; it is a 21st Century concerto for the ages...

Also:
Ionarts at Large: Widmann World Premiere with Mariss Jansons and the BRSO

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 07:21:19 AM »
How can one create something that's primarily consonant if it's "out of the world of Mahler and Alban Berg"?  Both composers' music is unrelievedly filled to the brim with dissonances.  People seem to have this bizarre idea that consonant is what sounds good to them and dissonance is what sounds bad, but both terms have precise definitions and shouldn't be subject to the perceptions and whims of individuals.

Leave it to those who think that Debussy's music is mostly consonant, when the opposite is true.  Really, what people respond to more is not consonance as opposed to dissonance, or most jazz music would be thrown out with mid-century modernism, but the constant chromaticism in lieu of diatonic/triadic references.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline North Star

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2016, 07:51:53 AM »
How can one create something that's primarily consonant if it's "out of the world of Mahler and Alban Berg"?  Both composers' music is unrelievedly filled to the brim with dissonances.  People seem to have this bizarre idea that consonant is what sounds good to them and dissonance is what sounds bad, but both terms have precise definitions and shouldn't be subject to the perceptions and whims of individuals.

Leave it to those who think that Debussy's music is mostly consonant, when the opposite is true.  Really, what people respond to more is not consonance as opposed to dissonance, or most jazz music would be thrown out with mid-century modernism, but the constant chromaticism in lieu of diatonic/triadic references.
Nowhere did Jens say it is primarily consonant.

I'm a couple of minutes in, listening to the recording on Spotify now.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 08:11:48 AM »
Nowhere did Jens say it is primarily consonant.

I'm a couple of minutes in, listening to the recording on Spotify now.

Granted, but neither this work nor the music of Berg or Mahler is characterized by its use of consonance, and in fact, both of those composers are distinguished by their overwhelming preponderance of dissonance compared to other composers of their time.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline North Star

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2016, 08:17:25 AM »
Granted, but neither this work nor the music of Berg or Mahler is characterized by its use of consonance, and in fact, both of those composers are distinguished by their overwhelming preponderance of dissonance compared to other composers of their time.
And yet both can also be lyrical and consonant, too, and those qualities are often that much more powerful when they emerge from dissonance, and vice versa.
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Offline Cato

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2016, 08:20:12 AM »
 (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)

How about Widmann's Window?
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2016, 08:22:40 AM »
And yet both can also be lyrical and consonant, too, and those qualities are often that much more powerful when they emerge from dissonance, and vice versa.

Name a Berg movement that is consonant.  Other than the Piano Sonata and the early songs, I can't think of a single piece he wrote that ends on a triad, the only traditionally consonant harmony.

It's also not as if the other modernists didn't write lyrically.  I can think of wonderfully beautiful melodies in Boulez, Carter, Sessions, Schoenberg, Ligeti, and others of the high modernist movement.  The idea that dissonant harmony is opposed to lyricism should have ended with Wagner.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline North Star

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2016, 08:32:02 AM »
Name a Berg movement that is consonant.  Other than the Piano Sonata and the early songs, I can't think of a single piece he wrote that ends on a triad, the only traditionally consonant harmony.
Nowhere did I say that they wrote pieces or movements that are entirely consonant.
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Offline North Star

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2016, 08:32:22 AM »
(Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)

How about Widmann's Window?
Or Widmann's Wiedersehen
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2016, 08:38:15 AM »
Nowhere did I say that they wrote pieces or movements that are entirely consonant.

In what sense does consonance give power to dissonance?  Do the constant dissonances in a Debussy piece like Voiles lack power because of the lack of consonant harmony?  Is a blues that uses all seventh chords the worse for not having any consonant triads in it?

I'm interested in knowing in what sense Widmann's Concerto was consonant, too.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline North Star

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2016, 08:40:34 AM »
In what sense does consonance give power to dissonance?  Do the constant dissonances in a Debussy piece like Voiles lack power because of the lack of consonant harmony?  Is a blues that uses all seventh chords the worse for not having any consonant triads in it?
In the sense that contrast makes this text visible.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2016, 08:45:05 AM »
In the sense that contrast makes this text visible.

That would only be meaningful if dissonance were a singular category without distinctions.  On the contrary, the vast majority of harmonies are dissonances, and these have a range of colors that can be contrasted with each other without a need for triads.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

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Re: Jörg Widman's ??? (Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2016, 08:50:26 AM »
(Pending Missing Alliterative Witticism)

How about Widmann's Window?

Widmann's Waaklam

Widmann Has Vays to Make You Talk

Widmann's Grocery Store

Widmann's Warnung

Widmann's Wooly Sweater

Widmann's Volk's Van

Widmann's Rim Shot

It's Widmann, Baby!

Widmann's Republic

Widmann's Weimar

Widmann's Mayonaise



WIDMANN'S WITTICISMS


That would only be meaningful if dissonance were a singular category without distinctions.  On the contrary, the vast majority of harmonies are dissonances, and these have a range of colors that can be contrasted with each other without a need for triads.

LOL, ONE ARGUMENTATIVE tHREAD ALREADY (oh, there's that caps lock monster again)

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Jörg Widman's Wiedersehen
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2016, 09:02:56 AM »
How can one create something that's primarily consonant if it's "out of the world of Mahler and Alban Berg"?  Both composers' music is unrelievedly filled to the brim with dissonances.  People seem to have this bizarre idea that consonant is what sounds good to them and dissonance is what sounds bad, but both terms have precise definitions and shouldn't be subject to the perceptions and whims of individuals.

Leave it to those who think that Debussy's music is mostly consonant, when the opposite is true.  Really, what people respond to more is not consonance as opposed to dissonance, or most jazz music would be thrown out with mid-century modernism, but the constant chromaticism in lieu of diatonic/triadic references.

People may well have bizarre ideas, myself included, though I don't suppose I am guilty of what your people are accused of.
However, for clarification I might add that I don't think of consonance as being the antonym or flipside-analogue of dissonance. Rather I find dissonance (as described by the musical term) an essential part of consonance.
"Consonance" for me is a shortcut for all that is tonal and, beyond conventional tonality, "carries within the key to its own deciphering". Alban Berg's op.1 (already mentioned) or his VC or Schoeck's Notturno may serve as examples of music that is technically a-tonal but decidedly consonant by that, probably imperfect, definition.

Well, I think NorthStar understands. Also: Widman's Wiedersehen it is, good though "Window" would have been, too. "Has Vays to make you Talk" close third...

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Jörg Widman's Wiedersehen
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2016, 09:06:41 AM »
People may well have bizarre ideas, myself included, though I don't suppose I am guilty of what your people are accused of.
However, for clarification I might add that I don't think of consonance as being the antonym or flipside-analogue of dissonance. Rather I find dissonance (as described by the musical term) an essential part of consonance.
"Consonance" for me is a shortcut for all that is tonal and, beyond conventional tonality, "carries within the key to its own deciphering". Alban Berg's op.1 (already mentioned) or his VC or Schoeck's Notturno may serve as examples of music that is technically a-tonal but decidedly consonant by that, probably imperfect, definition.

I don't believe in the existence of atonality, but Berg's Piano Sonata, being in B minor, certainly wouldn't count under any definition I'm aware of.  It's also extremely dissonant, so I don't get what you're saying.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Jörg Widman's Wiedersehen
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2016, 09:34:21 AM »
I don't believe in the existence of atonality, but Berg's Piano Sonata, being in B minor, certainly wouldn't count under any definition I'm aware of.  It's also extremely dissonant, so I don't get what you're saying.

You are right, of course, in that op.1 (unlike some other works, VC and Notturno still apply) is, strictly speaking hovering around a key; B minor. It is on the that edge towards resolution of tonality (not quite the same as a-tonal), but it isn't in the nominal sense a-tonal. Let's scrap that aspect. The main point of confusion seems to arise out of my use of the term "consonant", which isn't, perhaps, as clever as I have always thought it to be, if it causes such insistent, but understandable, misunderstandings. I just haven't found a better term (or aphorism) for the music yet, that I seek to describe.

Offline nathanb

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Re: Jörg Widman's Wiedersehen
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2016, 11:54:47 AM »
Yeah I really love Widmann but if we spell his very simple last name correct in the thread title, that would be fantastic.

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Jörg Widman's Wiedersehen
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2016, 01:04:08 PM »
Yeah I really love Widmann but if we spell his very simple last name correct in the thread title, that would be fantastic.

Done. For some reason I was convinced, all of the sudden, that it was only one "n" and deleted one, on starting this post. Now I got scared that I might have gotten it wrong in the article, too... but fortunately no.  0:)

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Jörg Widman's Wiedersehen
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2016, 01:13:42 PM »
You are right, of course, in that op.1 (unlike some other works, VC and Notturno still apply) is, strictly speaking hovering around a key; B minor. It is on the that edge towards resolution of tonality (not quite the same as a-tonal), but it isn't in the nominal sense a-tonal. Let's scrap that aspect. The main point of confusion seems to arise out of my use of the term "consonant", which isn't, perhaps, as clever as I have always thought it to be, if it causes such insistent, but understandable, misunderstandings. I just haven't found a better term (or aphorism) for the music yet, that I seek to describe.

Understandable, but the whole movement to write modernism out of classical music history bothers me, as does the idea that it represented a break with the "true" tradition.

At any rate, I listened to the Widmann Concerto, and while I didn't fall in love with it, it certainly is an attractive work and I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline SurprisedByBeauty

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Re: Jörg Widman's Wiedersehen
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2016, 01:19:46 PM »
Understandable, but the whole movement to write modernism out of classical music history bothers me, as does the idea that it represented a break with the "true" tradition.

At any rate, I listened to the Widmann Concerto, and while I didn't fall in love with it, it certainly is an attractive work and I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread.

Whoever is making that claim? I mean, the book "Surprised by Beauty" might actually... so I shouldn't act too surprised. But I certainly don't. And who does, here in the realm of GMG?

The Widmann concerto is, granted, much better live than on that disc. (And that even with the Vienna RSO / Whatshisname playing/conducting. Meister. Still Tetzlaff, though.)

Also: You didn't hijack; a bit of life and activity is good for a new thread. And it's not my thread, it's ours.  ;)