Author Topic: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis  (Read 5203 times)

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Offline Ken B

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2016, 09:23:24 AM »
I'm against it. Some could say as long as they're not hurting anyone, then what does it matter? My view: you can't take any chances like that. I can see someone being allowed to use marijuana if they're terminally ill. That's a completely different matter altogether. I just don't want to walk out and see accident upon accident happen. People are crazy enough with no kind of drug in their body!
If I knew how to cross -post I'd post this on Cato's grammar thread, because I want to illustrate the difference between precis and epitome. A precis is a compression of an argument or writing substantially in its own words.  Here is my precis of John's argument:
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you can't take any chances... accident upon accident...People are crazy enough   
An epitome is a compression of an argument by characterization, in the epitomist's words. Here is my epitome of John's argument
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Because zombie apocalypse
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2016, 09:55:18 AM »
The argument with traffic accidents could be used for a total prohibition of alcohol as well. I think everybody has to admit that there is no simple solution. There are pragmatic as well as principal reasons for a more liberal drug policy and there are of course also good arguments against them. But one problem is that one of the worst drugs (if abused), namely alcohol, is handled liberally in most countries (almost everywhere in the West less prohibitive than in the US) and that alcohol prohibition was a desaster, all things considered. So is the "War on Drugs". I do not see why a more liberal drug policy wrt to pot, or even cocaine and opiates should not have some restrictions still in place and be combined with "aggressive" information policy wrt to the bad effects of those drugs while getting rid of the worst side effects of the war on drugs.

As for indulgent friends: Probably everyone has lost someone because of some unhealthy habit, be it alcohol abuse or smoking tobacco or unhealthy eating/obesity. But we all seem to agree that unhealthy food should not be banned and tobacco at most restricted etc. The reasons for the ban on other drugs are mostly historically contingent or politically motivated, not mainly medically. (AFAIK the physical addiction to alcohol can be as bad as opiate addiction.)
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2016, 11:49:11 AM »
The argument with traffic accidents could be used for a total prohibition of alcohol as well. I think everybody has to admit that there is no simple solution. There are pragmatic as well as principal reasons for a more liberal drug policy and there are of course also good arguments against them. But one problem is that one of the worst drugs (if abused), namely alcohol, is handled liberally in most countries (almost everywhere in the West less prohibitive than in the US) and that alcohol prohibition was a desaster, all things considered. So is the "War on Drugs". I do not see why a more liberal drug policy wrt to pot, or even cocaine and opiates should not have some restrictions still in place and be combined with "aggressive" information policy wrt to the bad effects of those drugs while getting rid of the worst side effects of the war on drugs.

As for indulgent friends: Probably everyone has lost someone because of some unhealthy habit, be it alcohol abuse or smoking tobacco or unhealthy eating/obesity. But we all seem to agree that unhealthy food should not be banned and tobacco at most restricted etc. The reasons for the ban on other drugs are mostly historically contingent or politically motivated, not mainly medically. (AFAIK the physical addiction to alcohol can be as bad as opiate addiction.)

I think sex between consenting adults should be legal. I don't think it should be legal while driving. Driving distracted or impaired is and should be illegal no matter what the cause of impairment. This is really a separate issue and a smokescreen. Even those pain-wracked dying souls on legal medical marijuana shouldn't be allowed to drive stoned. But the objection is foregone there, because even those who would deny others pleasure, solace, and autonomy can be too embarrassed to also deny them pain relief.
Some here have their faculties so addled by La Mer that perhaps, to prevent accident after accident, we should ban it entirely.
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Offline Andante

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2016, 12:05:47 PM »
Wonder no more, Andante : the all-too-predictable result - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/10/marijuana-related-fatal-car-accidents-surge-washin/   Similar reports are coming from California and Colorado.  One might well ask whether marijuana decriminalization laws permit users to smoke pot or protect their right to weed us out on the road. Meanwhile, research is being done to better measure drivers' marijuana-induced intoxication levels as well as specific effects on their driving.  The added administrative costs of all this require...guess? : more taxation on pot sales.  If you want Bo, get used to it.

That is not a good result for the “make it legal crowed” the only way you will ever reduce these figures is to keep it illegal and have heavier penalties i.e. put a large proportion of the costs of accidents onto the perpetrators this would include alcohol as well, I would assume that their insurance would not cover them. 
What is Bo??
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2016, 12:15:09 PM »
That is not a good result for the “make it legal crowed” the only way you will ever reduce these figures is to keep it illegal and have heavier penalties i.e. put a large proportion of the costs of accidents onto the perpetrators this would include alcohol as well, I would assume that their insurance would not cover them. 
What is Bo??

Then answer my point about sex. Sex can impair driving. We understand you don't ban sex in toto because it can impair driving, you ban it under the circumstances where it does so. Same for alcohol. Same for cough syrup. Same for muscle relaxers. Same for anti-depressants. Same for earphones. Same for cell phones. Same for video players. Same for nutmeg. But for pot we need a total ban?
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2016, 12:19:31 PM »
Does anyone here talking about driving know anything about drunk driving rates? They are HUGELY lower than they were when I was, say, John's age. We addressed the problem of drunk driving more directly, not with some blanket indirect approach like an alcohol ban. Andante's claim that we cannot reduce intoxicated driving due to X without a complete ban on X is absurd.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2016, 12:45:20 PM »
This was largely my point as well. I think the relation to impaired driving is misleading. Someone else can  look up the statistics but the number of accidents due to drivers using cellphones or smartphones has certainly skyrocketed in the last decades (because it was around zero in 1990). Should we ban cellphones because they can distract and lead to accidents? (why not ban cars? this would certainly ban car accidents...)

EDIT: Sanantonio beat me by 2 minutes... ;)

Now one can argue that there is no use at all for certain drugs, only abuse. But this is begging the question. People obviously see a personal "use"/benefit in intoxication and it is not obvious why they should be largely allowed to indulge in alcohol, tobacco, overeating and other kinds of excess, potentially dangerous to themselves and others, whereas certain other drugs be banned and the users criminalized.
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Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2016, 12:46:37 PM »
Incidentally Andante your little bot says I am running Linux and Chrome. I do not use Chrome and am not running on Linux or indeed any Unix system.
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Offline Andante

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2016, 12:57:35 PM »
Then answer my point about sex. Sex can impair driving. We understand you don't ban sex in toto because it can impair driving, you ban it under the circumstances where it does so. Same for alcohol. Same for cough syrup. Same for muscle relaxers. Same for anti-depressants. Same for earphones. Same for cell phones. Same for video players. Same for nutmeg. But for pot we need a total ban?

You are comparing apples to hamburgers, marijuana and methamphetamines, are extremely addictive habit forming substances, alcohol can also be addictive to some people. If you don’t ban it are you prepared to keep picking up the tab for the people that are addicted to the stuff their lives ruined. The other examples you gave were just a joke, right!  Sorry about my little bot it is probably on marijuana I will ban it sap
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Offline amw

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2016, 01:20:10 PM »
Marijuana is actually significantly less addictive than alcohol, cigarettes or even things like caffeine, iirc. Doesn't belong in the same category as amphetamines or heroin or whatever.

Imo honestly the world is a sufficiently messed up place that, if doing whatever drug makes you feel better, go ahead. People should obviously be informed of the health effects, and not allowed to drive or operate heavy machinery or whatever under the influence, etc, but prohibition is just sending a lot of harmless people to prison and making some very unpleasant cartels very rich and very violent.

Offline Ken B

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2016, 01:25:34 PM »
You are comparing apples to hamburgers, marijuana and methamphetamines, are extremely addictive habit forming substances, alcohol can also be addictive to some people. If you don’t ban it are you prepared to keep picking up the tab for the people that are addicted to the stuff their lives ruined. The other examples you gave were just a joke, right!  Sorry about my little bot it is probably on marijuana I will ban it sap
No of course not a joke, just extreme examples to make a point. Cough syrups really can make you slow, nutmeg really is psycho-active, La Mer really does induce sleep (OK, the La Mer thing was a joke.) We should care about impairde derivers, whatever the impairment, not impaired non -drivers sitting at home if driver safety is the issue.
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Offline Andante

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2016, 03:11:18 PM »
No of course not a joke, just extreme examples to make a point. Cough syrups really can make you slow, nutmeg really is psycho-active, La Mer really does induce sleep (OK, the La Mer thing was a joke.) We should care about impairde derivers, whatever the impairment, not impaired non -drivers sitting at home if driver safety is the issue.
So cough syrup and Nutmeg are habit forming drugs wow I shall make a note
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Offline North Star

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2016, 03:24:26 PM »
So cough syrup and Nutmeg are habit forming drugs wow I shall make a note
There are formulas of cough syrup that have codeine (an opiate that metabolizes into morphine) in them, for example.
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Offline Andante

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2016, 03:30:10 PM »
There are formulas of cough syrup that have codeine (an opiate that metabolizes into morphine) in them, for example.

OMG whatever next? We are done for.  :o
Perhaps someone should tell the Chemist to put a warning on the bottle
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Offline Ken B

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2016, 04:14:19 PM »
OMG whatever next? We are done for.  :o

What in god's name are you on about? Your argument is that marijuana must be banned to make driving safer. We are refuting that argument. Whether cough syrup is addictive or not has sweet f$ck all to do with whether it impairs driving.
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Offline Andante

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2016, 07:18:51 PM »
What in god's name are you on about? Your argument is that marijuana must be banned to make driving safer. We are refuting that argument.
God has nothing to do with it I think you are getting a bit confused just as my little bot was, driving is only part of the problem although a fatal part for some.
Quote
Whether cough syrup is addictive or not has sweet f$ck all to do with whether it impairs driving.
Yes that is what I was inferring did you not understand?
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Offline Ghost Sonata

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2016, 04:07:25 AM »
Traffic fatalities are up about 10% in the last ten years.  Most experts think this is due to use of mobile devices while driving.

Let's outlaw cell phones.

We can prohibit driving and hand-held cell phone use - as 14 sensible states have done.   
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Offline Ghost Sonata

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2016, 04:09:50 AM »
No of course not a joke, just extreme examples to make a point. Cough syrups really can make you slow, nutmeg really is psycho-active, La Mer really does induce sleep (OK, the La Mer thing was a joke.) We should care about impairde derivers, whatever the impairment, not impaired non -drivers sitting at home if driver safety is the issue.

I make it a rule never listen to La Mer whilst driving; the excitement can be distracting!   ;)
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2016, 04:30:58 AM »
La Mer is to be listened to only while sailing, rowing, surfing, swimming or canoeing!
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
(Bob Dylan)

Offline Ghost Sonata

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Re: Perhaps a sensitive topic? re weed, ganja, cannabis
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2016, 04:38:56 AM »
La Mer is to be listened to only while sailing, rowing, surfing, swimming or canoeing!

Now you've made me wanna listen to his En bateau from the Petite suite... 8)  But not while driving, for sure!
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