Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 230956 times)

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Offline Rinaldo

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6180 on: October 13, 2017, 02:45:47 AM »
It's relevant to this thread how strange it is that the really "conservative Christian" parts of the country, as well as some really high profile (scions of?) famous Christians love Tlump. It just seems so bizarre...this rich New York libertine who obviously doesn't care about Christianity.

They share a common hobby: white supremacy.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6181 on: October 13, 2017, 03:04:13 AM »
It's relevant to this thread how strange it is that the really "conservative Christian" parts of the country, as well as some really high profile (scions of?) famous Christians love Tlump. It just seems so bizarre...this rich New York libertine who obviously doesn't care about Christianity.

Look, I really hated what he did to Atlantic City, NJ, just trashed it in the 90's. Those casinos were not for revival meetings. There are some old vids on youtube about how it was in the late 50's and 60's, a really nice place to visit and enjoy, not a slum for those who lost their shirts from gambling.
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Offline Christo

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6182 on: October 13, 2017, 03:31:08 AM »
. It just seems so bizarre...this rich New York libertine who obviously doesn't care about Christianity.
You're right, it is bizarre and I fully agree with Karl: their endorsement is an alarming indication of the emptiness of these 'Christians'.
… music is not only an `entertainment’, nor a mere luxury, but a necessity of the spiritual if not of the physical life, an opening of those magic casements through which we can catch a glimpse of that country where ultimate reality will be found.    RVW, 1948

Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6183 on: October 13, 2017, 03:33:54 AM »
Look, I really hated what he did to Atlantic City, NJ, just trashed it in the 90's. Those casinos were not for revival meetings. There are some old vids on youtube about how it was in the late 50's and 60's, a really nice place to visit and enjoy, not a slum for those who lost their shirts from gambling.
Really bad case there of Trump trying to use eminent domain to trample the "little guy" (I think it was a woman actually). I think he lost that fight.

Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6184 on: October 13, 2017, 03:37:18 AM »
I am really not fond of televangelists or their ideologies. The doctrine of prosperity is not exactly the gospel, came more or less with the Reformation, also something I don't subscribe to. It could be Trump in his heart of hearts regard certain people as useful idiots. They bring in votes, so he welcomes them. Oh well.
Trump himself seems to subscribe to the doctrine of prosperity and various televangelist teachings (his WH spiritual advisor is closely linked to that movement) so maybe it's more him that's being seen as the useful idiot.....

(as a side note, that's also the one thing Mike Pence has in common with his running mate: that particular strain of revelationist evangelicalism, which he seems to have drifted into after upbringing as a Catholic. And Roy Moore, who's now running for Senate in Alabama and who Trump feels he should have endorsed. And Bush 43... maybe a bit of a trend in the Republican party these days...)

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6185 on: October 13, 2017, 03:46:41 AM »
I've tried to bring it back to Tlump every time by connecting some aspect of Christianity to him. I did throw in some asides as you caught here. But I've tried to also point out something about some of the weirder aspects of the personal relationship between select Christians and the savior Donald. I'm sure most Christians don't feel quite that way. But Pat Robertson and Jim Bakker seem to believe, though it's probably not hurting their bottom line, that blue state people are in greater apocalyptic peril. Also, you're confusing my posts with some of the others since I've not bashed the Bible I don't think. Quite the contrary since I think I'm the one who first raised the question of whether knowing it denoted some intelligence on the part of Mr. Jimmy Carter. (Just to recap) Someone else here proposed that it was as good at knowing racing forms. That's as far as we got with that line of reasoning. As for Calvinists, it's the source of their knowledge but I find their soteriology confusing.

I appreciate your thoughts.  Yes, for the Evangelicals (and not them alone) the endorsement of the President has been aptly characterized in the free press as a deal with the devil.
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Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6186 on: October 13, 2017, 03:47:57 AM »
Trump himself seems to subscribe to the doctrine of prosperity and various televangelist teachings (his WH spiritual advisor is closely linked to that movement) so maybe it's more him that's being seen as the useful idiot.....

(as a side note, that's also the one thing Mike Pence has in common with his running mate: that particular strain of revelationist evangelicalism, which he seems to have drifted into after upbringing as a Catholic. And Roy Moore, who's now running for Senate in Alabama and who Trump feels he should have endorsed. And Bush 43... maybe a bit of a trend in the Republican party these days...)
With all the varieties of belief and Americana out there, it's amazing that we end up with the most garish and radical of the lot. It's like a Philip K. Dick novel where the extreme of every new media becomes the test by which success is judged. Can we come back from this? Or is this really the new nightmare reality?

Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6187 on: October 13, 2017, 03:49:17 AM »
I appreciate your thoughts.  Yes, for the Evangelicals (and not them alone) the endorsement of the President has been aptly characterized in the free press as a deal with the devil.
what could be more ironic?

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6188 on: October 13, 2017, 03:54:14 AM »
what could be more ironic?

The arrant cynicism only fuels general disdain of Christianity.

Meanwhile—and as I read the Gospels, some of the most inspiring moments are when Christ heals the sick—[El Tupé’s] Obamacare order could destroy the health-care system
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Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6189 on: October 13, 2017, 04:02:16 AM »
I mean, evangelical protestants make up ~31% of the US population but are the most rapidly ageing religious group within that population. They are heavily concentrated among over-55s (Trump's own transition from mainline Presbyterian into televangelist prosperity-gospel lover probably dates back to when he first became associated with his current WH spiritual advisor: ~14 years ago, aged 57) and young people brought up in evangelical traditions are very likely to leave the tradition once they become adults—I know three ex-evangelicals in my personal life, all of whom felt the religious principles were too strict and unforgiving and in some cases suffered abuse from clergy. The reason there's so many of them is simply because they have a lot of kids. Same with ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel, who are actually the fastest-growing religious group at the moment—comparable to American evangelicals in the 70s—but whose children are the most likely to identify as something different once they grow up.

At the moment, the concentration of older white males and wealth in the religious movement in the USA (and older Ashkenazi males and wealth in the religious movement in Israel) means their influence will be considerable for some time to come, but it is definitely on the wane in the USA (and will probably be on the wane in Israel within a decade or two): in 2004 the influence of the evangelical vote ensured Republican politicians and many Democrats opposed gay marriage, in 2017 almost no one even bothers to bring it up. And among younger evangelicals who keep the faith there has nonetheless been a pretty definite liberalisation of attitudes in some respects—eg Southern Baptists, the oldest evangelical denomination in the USA and thus the one that has "kept" the most of its young people on board, now having an extremely welcoming attitude towards refugees and renouncing the Confederate flag and white supremacy, which would still be political suicide for many Republicans.

Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6190 on: October 13, 2017, 04:12:42 AM »
I mean, evangelical protestants make up ~31% of the US population but are the most rapidly ageing religious group within that population. They are heavily concentrated among over-55s (Trump's own transition from mainline Presbyterian into televangelist prosperity-gospel lover probably dates back to when he first became associated with his current WH spiritual advisor: ~14 years ago, aged 57) and young people brought up in evangelical traditions are very likely to leave the tradition once they become adults—I know three ex-evangelicals in my personal life, all of whom felt the religious principles were too strict and unforgiving and in some cases suffered abuse from clergy. The reason there's so many of them is simply because they have a lot of kids. Same with ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel, who are actually the fastest-growing religious group at the moment—comparable to American evangelicals in the 70s—but whose children are the most likely to identify as something different once they grow up.

At the moment, the concentration of older white males and wealth in the religious movement in the USA (and older Ashkenazi males and wealth in the religious movement in Israel) means their influence will be considerable for some time to come, but it is definitely on the wane in the USA (and will probably be on the wane in Israel within a decade or two): in 2004 the influence of the evangelical vote ensured Republican politicians and many Democrats opposed gay marriage, in 2017 almost no one even bothers to bring it up. And among younger evangelicals who keep the faith there has nonetheless been a pretty definite liberalisation of attitudes in some respects—eg Southern Baptists, the oldest evangelical denomination in the USA and thus the one that has "kept" the most of its young people on board, now having an extremely welcoming attitude towards refugees and renouncing the Confederate flag and white supremacy, which would still be political suicide for many Republicans.
This comment was well worth reading (not that others aren't as well :))
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 04:55:18 AM by milk »

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6191 on: October 13, 2017, 05:42:49 AM »
I'm not sure this would pass the golden rule test.  Maybe borderline.

You wrote that Christianity gives a license to sin, then allegations that the Church condones sexual abuse. Plenty of the latter happens outside its walls. At least there are rules forbidding it on the books.

Oh really?  Like, say, China?  You have this fixed idea that morality comes from Christianity, which I find silly.  Just saying.[/font]

Then you don't know anything about me, but I think you do. Buddhism had very developed moral principles 500 years before Christ. The point is applying them in society. It is difficult to overturn "might is right" and read it backwards. To do so would admit of principles above and beyond mere physical survival.
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Offline eljr

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6192 on: October 13, 2017, 05:50:24 AM »
young people brought up in evangelical traditions are very likely to leave the tradition once they become adults

can you support this or is this opinion?

I ask because my observations and person experiences do not reflect this at all.

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Offline Fidgety

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6193 on: October 13, 2017, 05:52:34 AM »
At least there are rules forbidding it on the books.

But there is also a very clear, well-established ritual used to wash away the sins.  And that ritual is used repeatedly, particularly within church hierarchy.  That bugs me, and I think that's a flaw specific to Christianity.


Buddhism had very developed moral principles 500 years before Christ.

Let me know if you can think of anything in Buddhist moral principles that goes much beyond the golden rule.  I'm curious.

Come to think of it, you might have a hard time finding anything resembling "moral principles" in Buddhism, at least early Buddhism.  But give it a try, you might succeed.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 05:57:49 AM by Fidgety »
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Online Turner

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6194 on: October 13, 2017, 06:01:26 AM »
It's relevant to this thread how strange it is that the really "conservative Christian" parts of the country, as well as some really high profile (scions of?) famous Christians love Tlump. It just seems so bizarre...this rich New York libertine who obviously doesn't care about Christianity.

Cf. this back in 2016 - "Can this political group get the Amish to vote for Trump? "
"... we are introducing Trump to the last pocket of voters who really don't know who he is ..."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36799768

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6195 on: October 13, 2017, 06:02:18 AM »
But there is also a very clear, well-established ritual used to wash away the sins.  And that ritual is used repeatedly, particularly within church hierarchy.  That bugs me, and I think that's a flaw specific to Christianity.
Let me know if you can think of anything in Buddhist moral principles that goes much beyond the golden rule.  I'm curious.

In Catholicism you must confess your sins and do repentance and reparation, if applicable. There are no blank checks. I said before that some Bible Belters to me are from an alien planet, and I don't think they are mainstream Christianity. So maybe you got a wrong impression from them.

Buddhism goes further and says, "do not kill", meaning ANY sentient being. So one could apply the golden rule to flies or snakes, do unto them as you would have done unto you but they might not agree. Therefore, I prefer to keep the golden rule for humans. Their theology is very complex but quite basic is accuulating merit by good deeds and bad karma by wrong action or evil deeds.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6196 on: October 13, 2017, 06:05:12 AM »
can you support this or is this opinion?

I ask because my observations and person experiences do not reflect this at all.

This is more anecdote, which is not what you requested;  but from my experience, there is no generalizing one way or the other.  Some who are brought up in that tradition, that is what they know, so they do not stray very far (or, they stray in the wild young years, and boomerang back ‘home’).  Others, as they grow up and form attachments to (for instance) atheists who are not agents of the devil introducing moral chaos into the world, and to homosexuals who are just as good a person as they, do indeed shed the Evangelical baggage.

Probably in either case, it’s rather an individual journey, and nothing especially easy.  (The staying ‘home,’ with its safe familiarity, is probably the easier path.)
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline eljr

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6197 on: October 13, 2017, 06:13:09 AM »
Given that everything necessary to understand how to be loving, moral human being is contained in the Bible,

Sorry, I roared with laughter upon reading this.

No point in continuing this, people believe what they want then build a case to support it. True objectivity always an illusionist.

I'd take my kids to the track, give them a racing form and $20 bucks rather than take them to a church and giving them $20 and bible.

If they contemplate they racing form at the track they stand a chance of coming home with the $20 or more.

If they contemplate the bible at the church, they will come home with no money.

-----------------------------

Morality is not universal nor stable.

Further, you don't need a collection of wild tales, continually edited by the powerful for their earthly desires to learn morality in 2017 western civilization.







 
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Offline Todd

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #6199 on: October 13, 2017, 06:34:57 AM »
I'd take my kids to the track, give them a racing form and $20 bucks rather than take them to a church and giving them $20 and bible.

If they contemplate they racing form at the track they stand a chance of coming home with the $20 or more.

If they contemplate the bible at the church, they will come home with no money.

Should one roar with laughter at reducing this to matters involving currency?  Or at the reduction of the “bible at the church” experience?

Quote
True objectivity always an illusionist.

This is an oversimplification.  Like many oversimplifications, the elements of truth make it attractive.

Quote
Morality is not universal nor stable.

This may be less objective (even if it were clearer) than you think  8)

Quote
Further, you don't need a collection of wild tales, continually edited by the powerful for their earthly desires to learn morality in 2017 western civilization.

You do not need me to tell you that you have engaged in tendentious, scornful caricature here. You do not need me to point out to you its limited value.

What I will observe, though, is that you do not need an appreciation of classical music to enjoy a rich life.  However, many people find it a worthwhile pursuit.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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