Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 730358 times)

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Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7020 on: November 17, 2017, 04:50:11 PM »
Evidence to prove sexual assault in a court of law isn't necessary to determine whether someone should serve in public office, only whether someone should be convicted of a crime and suffer the necessary penalty. Can someone with a history of inappropriate sexual behaviour and "jokes" about assaulting women be trusted to represent the interests of 51% of his constituents and ensure a safe workplace environment for his female employees & co-workers? I would think the answer would be obviously no, but the reaction from liberals in particular on social media reminds me that a significant proportion of people are still to this day defending Bill Clinton.

So I don't have much hope that political culture will change until there are more women in it.

(And yes, Trump shouldn't hold public office either, and should probably be at least indicted in the case of the child rape case, but I have zero confidence that that will ever happen.)

Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7021 on: November 17, 2017, 05:18:38 PM »
I am wondering what Franken did exactly. The forced kissing I know about, although, since Franken asked and received permission, this isn't quite right. He certainly verbally harassed her and coerced her "cooperation" and then piggishly abused her acquiescence. The basis of the groping allegation, however, needs clarifying. The victim made the claim but also stated she had no awareness of it having happened until she saw the photo. Is there more than one photo? In the one I saw, Franken's hands are about a foot from the victim's breasts. It is clear he conspired to create a suggestive photo, at least, but who among those in a position to know, claims there was groping? I would want to ask the photographer.

Resignation seems like gross overkill to me, at least until the above questions are answered.


     It's an unpleasant reality that we're in the middle of a long overdue crackdown that makes it hard to make fine distinctions. By his own admission Franken is not innocent. To some extent he will be taking extra punishment and we know why.
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7022 on: November 17, 2017, 05:36:15 PM »
Quote
Can someone with a history of inappropriate sexual behaviour and "jokes" about assaulting women be trusted to represent the interests of 51% of his constituents and ensure a safe workplace environment for his female employees & co-workers? I would think the answer would be obviously no, but the reaction from liberals in particular on social media reminds me that a significant proportion of people are still to this day defending Bill Clinton.

      I think you are being a little naive in thinking this is only a matter of "partisan truth" that advocates for women are trusted more, even when it's learned that they have betrayed that trust. The alternatives are often lousy. I'm not excusing the partisan element, but Franken is a real loss. I think his advocacy for women is as sincere as his behavior has been bad. The world is complicated like that.
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7023 on: November 17, 2017, 06:07:38 PM »
     It's an unpleasant reality that we're in the middle of a long overdue crackdown that makes it hard to make fine distinctions. By his own admission Franken is not innocent. To some extent he will be taking extra punishment and we know why.

Franken said he thought the photo was funny but it wasn't. Doesn't sound like an admission of groping to me. She described the kiss in gory detail, Franken claimed to remember it differently. That doesn't sound like acceding fully to her account, does it? I don't think you have thought this through as far as Franken has. Given the present climate and the "long overdue crackdown," blanket denials and fine distinctions would have been counterproductive, making him look like the denier scum of Alabama and Arkansas. Which is why he asked for an Ethics Committee investigation. By requesting it before anyone suggests another remedy (like you just did), he assures himself a hearing. One requiring evidence and discussion rather than a press trial. Until there is evidence of something criminal, not just criminally disgusting, it is absurd to put this in the same "bucket" (David Brooks) as sexual assault or attempted rape of a minor. It might well belong there for all I know. Time will tell.   
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 06:12:14 PM by BasilValentine »

Offline Todd

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Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7025 on: November 17, 2017, 07:04:19 PM »
      I think you are being a little naive in thinking this is only a matter of "partisan truth" that advocates for women are trusted more, even when it's learned that they have betrayed that trust. The alternatives are often lousy. I'm not excusing the partisan element, but Franken is a real loss. I think his advocacy for women is as sincere as his behavior has been bad. The world is complicated like that.
I mean it's not like conservatives are innocent here. See Donald Trump, again.

If Franken is sincere in his advocacy for women a good place to start would be by taking responsibility for his past behaviour, stepping down, and using his national platform to ensure that other men who have done similar things will face consequences and to amplify the voices of victims and survivors. What I expect is that he will be investigated by the Senate Ethics Committee of which many other lawmakers undoubtedly have similar skeletons in their closets they don't want unearthed, go on late-night talk shows with his old comedy friends to apologise and issue platitudes, and probably win re-election in 2020.

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7026 on: November 17, 2017, 07:16:03 PM »
Trump admin. to reverse ban on elephant trophies from Africa

"The Trump administration plans to allow hunters to import trophies of elephants they killed in Zimbabwe and Zambia back to the United States, reversing a ban put in place by the Obama administration in 2014, a U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service official confirmed to ABC News today."

Now in hold
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/360991-trump-puts-elephant-trophies-decision-on-hold-following-criticism
Theory 1) Trump decided he needed to get a little free PR.
Theory 2)  Trump is not a big game hunter so he doesn't care even if Donnie Jr does.
Theory 3). Trump Inc doesn't have any properties in safari country.

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7027 on: November 17, 2017, 07:19:06 PM »
What I expect is that he will be investigated by the Senate Ethics Committee of which many other lawmakers undoubtedly have similar skeletons in their closets they don't want unearthed


He could be the next Bob Packwood, though I doubt he's even censured.  It's hard to see this episode not impacting his effectiveness in the Senate.  Minnesotans should probably give him the boot in 2020 just to make sure they can have someone bring home the bacon.


Now in hold
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/360991-trump-puts-elephant-trophies-decision-on-hold-following-criticism
Theory 1) Trump decided he needed to get a little free PR.
Theory 2)  Trump is not a big game hunter so he doesn't care even if Donnie Jr does.
Theory 3). Trump Inc doesn't have any properties in safari country.


Zimbabwe, huh?  And there's the dustup with Mugabe now, too.  What say the conspiracy theorists? 
The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7028 on: November 17, 2017, 07:32:03 PM »
I mean it's not like conservatives are innocent here. See Donald Trump, again.

If Franken is sincere in his advocacy for women a good place to start would be by taking responsibility for his past behaviour, stepping down, and using his national platform to ensure that other men who have done similar things will face consequences and to amplify the voices of victims and survivors. What I expect is that he will be investigated by the Senate Ethics Committee of which many other lawmakers undoubtedly have similar skeletons in their closets they don't want unearthed, go on late-night talk shows with his old comedy friends to apologise and issue platitudes, and probably win re-election in 2020.

     The kinds of abuses people in power engage in over people they control have to be stopped. That's more important than whether Franken rehabilitates himself up to the standards of partisan opponents who suddenly have them. He faces his toughest test with his erstwhile supporters that didn't discover decent values a few days ago.
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Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7029 on: November 17, 2017, 07:33:24 PM »
I mean it's not like conservatives are innocent here. See Donald Trump, again.

If Franken is sincere in his advocacy for women a good place to start would be by taking responsibility for his past behaviour, stepping down, and using his national platform to ensure that other men who have done similar things will face consequences and to amplify the voices of victims and survivors. What I expect is that he will be investigated by the Senate Ethics Committee of which many other lawmakers undoubtedly have similar skeletons in their closets they don't want unearthed, go on late-night talk shows with his old comedy friends to apologise and issue platitudes, and probably win re-election in 2020.
Supporters of Franken are not likely to dismiss the claims or excuse them. I cannot say if he deserves a second act in politics or not. Even if this is an isolated case of acting like a pig, maybe not. The best I can say is that he hasn't attacked any minors (that we know about). Not saying much is it. I can't imagine the kind of sociopaths like Trump and Moore who can lie to everyone, attack their accusers knowing themselves that they are truly guilty. And I cannot imagine how people claiming any "morality" can excuse it. Also, the capacity to be so easy on oneself as to ignore or deny well-sourced multiple claims eludes me (in the cases of Trum and Moore). I think people with a "liberal" audience know they cannot get away with this. What does this say about the far right? It's Maddening. The U.S. seems so far gone: run by crooks and criminals who don't even have credentials or background. I would say that the country in which I live is better except that I know it isn't. Here in Japan, things are probably worse but they're so much better at deception and secrecy.   

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7030 on: November 17, 2017, 09:22:13 PM »
I’m a feminist. I study rape culture. And I don’t want Al Franken to resign.

"In other words, if we set this precedent in the interest of demonstrating our party’s solidarity with harassed and abused women, we’re only going to drain the swamp of people who, however flawed, still regularly vote to protect women’s rights and freedoms. The legislative branch will remain chockablock with old, white Republican men who regard women chiefly as sex objects and unpaid housekeepers, and we’ll show them how staunchly Democrats oppose their misogynistic attitudes by handing them more power.

Isn’t that hypocritical? I hear you asking, Because Republicans won’t do the right thing, we shouldn’t, either? But if the short-term “right thing” leads to long-term political catastrophe for American women, I think we need to reconsider our definition of the right thing. I am in no way suggesting that we decline to hold Franken accountable for his offenses — only that we think in terms of consequences that might actually improve women’s lives going forward."

Offline Marc

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7031 on: November 17, 2017, 09:53:52 PM »
[...]
Zimbabwe, huh?  And there's the dustup with Mugabe now, too.  What say the conspiracy theorists?

Mugabe is suffering from elephantiasis, and therefore hunting season has been postponed.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 09:55:57 PM by Marc »
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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7032 on: November 17, 2017, 11:31:51 PM »
The 'rehearsed kiss' that was part of the skit might have been considered within bounds in the context of a Saturday Night Live performance, but his partner was not a comedian or actor. She was a model who was coerced to go along with it, and for whom it was a disturbing experience. It was a serious mistake in judgment. I think it is a stretch to say it is criminal and/or worthy of expulsion. Whether Franken should resign would depend on the extent to which he believes this will compromise his effectiveness in the Senate. If he does stay he will be diminished.

Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7033 on: November 18, 2017, 12:43:23 AM »
The 'rehearsed kiss' that was part of the skit might have been considered within bounds in the context of a Saturday Night Live performance, but his partner was not a comedian or actor. She was a model who was coerced to go along with it, and for whom it was a disturbing experience. It was a serious mistake in judgment. I think it is a stretch to say it is criminal and/or worthy of expulsion. Whether Franken should resign would depend on the extent to which he believes this will compromise his effectiveness in the Senate. If he does stay he will be diminished.
Yeah. Franken let everyone down. He's a loss. But times have changed and it's probably not worth it anymore to keep him. I feel especially sad because Minnesota was my home for 10 years and it's a wonderful place to live. I thought Franken had been doing a good job. Franken should resign and Dayton should appoint someone, maybe Betty McCollum.   

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7034 on: November 18, 2017, 07:17:49 AM »
In other news, Trump reversed an Obama era ruling making it illegal to import elephant parts as hunting trophies:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-trump-elephant-hunt-trophies-20171116-story.html

Now he has stepped back from this because of public pressure. First of all, anyone killing elephants should be tried for murder and pilloried at their local zoo. This is another demonstration of what an utter POS occupies the White House, once again indulging his infantile preoccupation with destroying the good works of his predecessor.

Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7035 on: November 18, 2017, 07:19:46 AM »
Now he has stepped back from this because of public pressure. First of all, anyone killing elephants should be tried for murder and pilloried at their local zoo. This is another demonstration of what an utter POS occupies the White House, once again indulging his infantile preoccupation with destroying the good works of his predecessor.

The problem is that those two things are exactly what got him elected.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7036 on: November 18, 2017, 07:46:57 AM »

Zimbabwe, huh?  And there's the dustup with Mugabe now, too.  What say the conspiracy theorists?

Karma catching up with that jerk...
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Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7037 on: November 18, 2017, 07:49:29 AM »
First of all, anyone killing elephants should be tried for murder


That would require changing the legal definition of murder. 
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7038 on: November 18, 2017, 07:51:52 AM »
I’m a feminist. I study rape culture. And I don’t want Al Franken to resign.

"In other words, if we set this precedent in the interest of demonstrating our party’s solidarity with harassed and abused women, we’re only going to drain the swamp of people who, however flawed, still regularly vote to protect women’s rights and freedoms. The legislative branch will remain chockablock with old, white Republican men who regard women chiefly as sex objects and unpaid housekeepers, and we’ll show them how staunchly Democrats oppose their misogynistic attitudes by handing them more power.

Isn’t that hypocritical? I hear you asking, Because Republicans won’t do the right thing, we shouldn’t, either? But if the short-term “right thing” leads to long-term political catastrophe for American women, I think we need to reconsider our definition of the right thing. I am in no way suggesting that we decline to hold Franken accountable for his offenses — only that we think in terms of consequences that might actually improve women’s lives going forward."

     Dems have to be the party that wrestles with moral dilemmas with no easy answers. Franken should face punishment that fits the offense. Yet, the dilemma is that because there's so much more at stake he is most likely to either to be over or under sanctioned. The punishment will not fit the offense.

     The other party will borrow decent values from Dems as a vehicle to attack them. They have no intention of living by them or disciplining their own. All of their accusers are liars, partisan truthers.
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