Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 556975 times)

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Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7060 on: November 21, 2017, 08:38:00 AM »
     


That Hideous Strength sets Prof. Lewis apart from Messrs. Huxley and Orwell, however, both in its supernaturalism and its attention to the decadence of the mid-century academic mindset, the latter of which helped establish the conditions for technocrats to lay claim to the status of intellectual elite...Embodying the worst features of both “Right” and “Left” political thought, the N.I.C.E. (National Institute of Co-ordinated Experiments), also reveal the psychological justifications and political maneuvering at work within corporate technocracy and state-run social engineering, the overseers of an occupied Christendom. Most importantly, the politics of N.I.C.E. teach us something about the political non-choice facing most Europeans and Americans today, as the progressive element has in large part succeeded in its campaign against nature.

     Science is not vulnerable to the charge you make. You can't social engineer it into a form of official falsehood. Stalin tried, churches (other churches?) try, science can be suppressed for a while but it comes back to bother you some more.

     Christendom as you call it suffers from being "unoccupied". If you are a beliefy sort it will disappoint you that beliefs really don't justify themselves.

     Science is in the business of finding justification by evidence. It has worked better than justification by belief. What is called faith is a perversion of belief, which should follow from discovery and not warp it in advance. Faith is the ultimate campaign against nature.

     No religion just naturally occupies the social space for all time. There's no such thing as "my religion gets to win".

     As for social engineering, societies are all about that, there's none with no engineering in them. So the old gods do less, more is done in our own name, and the results are all over the place. Religious engineering was a bloody mess, too, and still is.
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Offline Todd

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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7062 on: November 21, 2017, 11:23:00 PM »
     
     Science is not vulnerable to the charge you make. You can't social engineer it into a form of official falsehood. Stalin tried, churches (other churches?) try, science can be suppressed for a while but it comes back to bother you some more.

     Christendom as you call it suffers from being "unoccupied". If you are a beliefy sort it will disappoint you that beliefs really don't justify themselves.

     Science is in the business of finding justification by evidence. It has worked better than justification by belief. What is called faith is a perversion of belief, which should follow from discovery and not warp it in advance. Faith is the ultimate campaign against nature.

     As for social engineering, societies are all about that, there's none with no engineering in them. So the old gods do less, more is done in our own name, and the results are all over the place. Religious engineering was a bloody mess, too, and still is.

I was careful to the use the word "scientism", which is a false, often irrational application of science.  To be brief, as this is somewhat off topic, religion is accused to being irrational when its applications tend to be more commonsense than what has been elevated to political correctness and cannot be questioned under pain of shunning, censorship, financial penalities, banishment from academia and the workplace.
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Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7063 on: November 22, 2017, 01:23:15 AM »
I was careful to the use the word "scientism", which is a false, often irrational application of science.  To be brief, as this is somewhat off topic, religion is accused to being irrational when its applications tend to be more commonsense than what has been elevated to political correctness and cannot be questioned under pain of shunning, censorship, financial penalities, banishment from academia and the workplace.
Can you give some examples of what you're talking about? Religion doesn't seem to be a good method of finding truth since I'd guess that you reject as irrational almost all of it, historically speaking (except the one particular belief in which you have faith). Sorry, this is way off topic. 

Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7064 on: November 22, 2017, 01:42:25 AM »
I do think That Hideous Strength is the most interesting part of the space trilogy, if you don't take its ideas too seriously and pretend Ransom isn't in it. But in a lot of ways it is surprisingly prescient of a society whose answer to catastrophic climate change is building more air conditioners, where Elon Musk is trying to make humans immortal and terraform Mars whilst one third of the world's population still lives without electricity or clean water and where Pepsi Co. is using protests against police brutality as advertisements for soft drinks. Lewis could see which way the wind was blowing better than most, even if his solution was basically that women should just go back to the kitchen and social scientists should stop trying to make life better for marginalised people and the kids these days should pull up their pants and stop listening to that horrible loud rock music.

Offline nodogen

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7065 on: November 22, 2017, 02:42:17 AM »
I was careful to the use the word "scientism", which is a false, often irrational application of science.  To be brief, as this is somewhat off topic, religion is accused to being irrational when its applications tend to be more commonsense than what has been elevated to political correctness and cannot be questioned under pain of shunning, censorship, financial penalities, banishment from academia and the workplace.

Whatever "commonsense" is supposed to be, it means nothing until it is tested against reality, by the scientific method. Often the "intuitively correct" turns out to be wrong.
Political correctness is a pejorative term invented by the reactionary right to provide an easy demonising label for progressive, non-discriminatory attitudes. Who knows what that has to do with religion and science. Another box of non sequiturs, probably.
Back on topic: how can one best defend Trump's mocking of a disabled person, his boasting of pussy grabbing, his lying, his racism, his narcissism, his ignorance: with commonsense or with a deity?


Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7066 on: November 22, 2017, 03:06:21 AM »
Can you give some examples of what you're talking about? Religion doesn't seem to be a good method of finding truth since I'd guess that you reject as irrational almost all of it, historically speaking (except the one particular belief in which you have faith). Sorry, this is way off topic.

It started with snyprrr's remark about choosing R's over D's or vice versa. I say there is little perceptible difference and it does have bearing to this thread because entrenched R and D politicians almost equally hate Trump. I was not aware of Lewis' book that more or less predicted where we were going 60 years ago until reading that article.

Not to stray too far, so much of what transpires today has to do with agreement with irrational premises that are not scientific in the sense they are proven but nevertheless have immense political clout. If you transgress them, the State is after you. This has to do where religion and science meet, at the crux of morality and sexual ethics.
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Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7067 on: November 22, 2017, 04:40:46 AM »
It started with snyprrr's remark about choosing R's over D's or vice versa. I say there is little perceptible difference and it does have bearing to this thread because entrenched R and D politicians almost equally hate Trump. I was not aware of Lewis' book that more or less predicted where we were going 60 years ago until reading that article.

Not to stray too far, so much of what transpires today has to do with agreement with irrational premises that are not scientific in the sense they are proven but nevertheless have immense political clout. If you transgress them, the State is after you. This has to do where religion and science meet, at the crux of morality and sexual ethics.
I don't think I can agree. "Much of what transpires" is the ordinary business of life. Probably, life has never been this good for so many people. That's transpiring also on the planet, notwithstanding the glaring misery. Science is just a method I think. Our most reliable method. Religion, the faith in Donald, is something else. It's not something anybody seriously relies on as they rely on airplanes or penicillin.
I know that some of my friends on the left have always said there's no difference between Ds and Rs. There's some connection between this and conspiracy theories but I'm not sure what it is.     
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 06:12:52 AM by milk »

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7068 on: November 22, 2017, 11:12:41 PM »
I don't think I can agree. "Much of what transpires" is the ordinary business of life. Probably, life has never been this good for so many people. That's transpiring also on the planet, notwithstanding the glaring misery. Science is just a method I think. Our most reliable method. Religion, the faith in Donald, is something else. It's not something anybody seriously relies on as they rely on airplanes or penicillin.
I know that some of my friends on the left have always said there's no difference between Ds and Rs. There's some connection between this and conspiracy theories but I'm not sure what it is.   

It might not be the bleeding obvious but once considering it as a reasonable hypothesis, government meddling in the private lives of citizens with "science" as an excuse, becomes not so wacky. You asked me to mention a few areas. After sending the post, I thought of climate change and regulations that have to do health. As science is not a monolith there are differing opinions but those the government decides on. become law. Global warming has practically become unassailable dogma. You have to "believe"!

For those who don't want vaccinations, or pay outrageous taxes on cigarettes, food labelled as to calories or whatnot as though anyone really reads them, meddling in school lunches, there aere probably many more examples but free choice has been stripped away little by little from them. The worst though has to do with reproduction, not a function of government, unless it is the Brave New World where human beings are engineered by the State. One should remember that phony science having to do with race was allied to a government that culminated in the mass murder under National Socialism.

There is hardly any opting out, whether an employer should provide birth control and why the heck should that be mandated by the government unless they are up to their ears in controlling the population, abortion being the issue that cannot be wiped clean from blatant government interference. Why should they want to kill off some people, yet replace them with immigrants who either have nothing to do with the culture but are hell bent on destroying it? As this already happened in Europe, indeed there is more than the whiff of a conspiracy. Nat'l Socialism was not destroyed, Communism was not really defeated, these ideologies to makeover human beings just went underground and are rearing their heads again in different disguises.

To sum up, I believe THIS is the reason the D's are not essentially different from the R's. Maybe the means are dissimilar but the results are the same. War is yet another means of skimming off the population, the best part. It also costs money, a humongous amount. Think of the Bushes and that GW voted for Hillary Clinton. That says everything.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 11:29:36 PM by zamyrabyrd »
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7069 on: November 22, 2017, 11:37:24 PM »
I wonder if you Americans will still have access to this forum after Ajit Pai does away with net neutrality. If not then I suppose we just have to do without you...  ::)
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Offline Rinaldo

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7070 on: November 23, 2017, 12:04:57 AM »
Global warming has practically become unassailable dogma. You have to "believe"!

For those who don't want vaccinations..

That says everything.

Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7071 on: November 23, 2017, 12:22:30 AM »
One should remember that phony science having to do with race...replace them with immigrants who either have nothing to do with the culture...
The answer to "phony science" is good science, isn't it? Remember the Church's involvement during WWII. I'm not saying this to bash religion but the church not only failed morally at the time but there also couldn't have been a final solution without centuries of theological demonization of Jews. As for immigration, well there's an interesting incongruity between these two statements I cherry picked from you. For starters, we're all immigrants at some point, not least my Jewish ancestors who also were thought "to have nothing to do with" the, ahem, "culture." But looking at the evidence, immigration is good for the economy and immigrant groups are comparatively low crime. I will agree that Europe has probably made some mistakes with the speed and size of it's programs. There does have to be some limits. But the U.S. policy hasn't changed that much in recent times and it's fairly successful. 

Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7072 on: November 23, 2017, 12:24:05 AM »
Just to try t be on topic, Doofus-potus's demonization of immigrants and embrace of white nationalism is not the least of his moral failing.

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7073 on: November 23, 2017, 12:45:10 AM »
That says everything.

Intelligent people should be able to consider the evidence and make their own decisions.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7074 on: November 23, 2017, 12:51:55 AM »
The answer to "phony science" is good science, isn't it? Remember the Church's involvement during WWII. I'm not saying this to bash religion but the church not only failed morally at the time but there also couldn't have been a final solution without centuries of theological demonization of Jews. As for immigration, well there's an interesting incongruity between these two statements I cherry picked from you. For starters, we're all immigrants at some point, not least my Jewish ancestors who also were thought "to have nothing to do with" the, ahem, "culture." But looking at the evidence, immigration is good for the economy and immigrant groups are comparatively low crime. I will agree that Europe has probably made some mistakes with the speed and size of it's programs. There does have to be some limits. But the U.S. policy hasn't changed that much in recent times and it's fairly successful.

True, the churches were weak in confronting the socialist menace but the situation is even worse now because it is not an overt battle.
My grandparents were immigrants but it was understood that they had to conform to social mores, not impose their own. Unvetted immigration is the problem. That is what Trump's travel ban was about.
Generally, Western Civ is based on Judeo-Christian values, which in turn come from the Bible, all of it.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 02:21:05 AM by zamyrabyrd »
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Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7075 on: November 23, 2017, 01:30:23 AM »
True, the churches were weak in confronting the socialist menace but the situation is even worse now because it is not an overt battle.
My grandparents were immigrants but it was understood that they had to conform to social mores, not impose their own. Unvetted immigration is the problem. That is what Trump's travel band was about.
Generally, Western Civ is based on Judeo-Christian values, which in turn come from the Bible, all of it.
Again I see similarities between my friends on the far left and people on the extreme right: This notion that things are as bad or worse now than the the fascism of WWII. I don't know how to talk people down from this ledge. I had a really good friend once upon a time who drifted into darker and darker views of the world. I stepped away from him when he became a pretty well-known "internexpert" disciple of conspiracies. He ended up in suicide. I would say to anyone who thinks things are so bad to really consider at least experimenting with another perspective. This is probably, comparatively, one of the better times to be alive unless you live in one of the glaring pockets of misery on the planet. I'm not an expert, but I think, constitutionally, Dump's ban doesn't work. As I understand it, religious tests are no-go in the ol' US of A: obviously the duh-potus doesn't look to Leviticus, Exodus, Deuteronomy nor the Sermon on the Mount for his personal or public morality (the covetous, lustful, gluttonous, prideful, hypocritical, vindictive, serial divorce-r).   
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 01:52:09 AM by milk »

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7076 on: November 23, 2017, 04:13:34 AM »
Intelligent people should be able to consider the evidence and make their own decisions.

Intelligent people should be able to know who tells the real evidence and who is lying. It is called source criticism. Unfortunately a lot of people lack on that front including you it seems.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7077 on: November 23, 2017, 04:33:08 AM »
Generally, Western Civ is based on Judeo-Christian values,...

Yes, a lot of it is, but for example democracy was invented in Greek centuries before Judeo-Christian religions were even born. During the last couple of centuries Western Civ has become more on more secular allowing a lot of progress in society from women's right to vote to gay marriage.

...which in turn come from the Bible, all of it.

No, fortunately not. We don't allow slavery anymore and raped women don't have to marry their rapists anymore. So, fortunately not much of Western Civ today is based on the Bible. Fortunately a lot has been "upgraded" with secular humanist and scientific principles.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 04:34:55 AM by 71 dB »
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7078 on: November 23, 2017, 06:41:53 AM »
Yes, a lot of it is, but for example democracy was invented in Greek centuries before Judeo-Christian religions were even born. During the last couple of centuries Western Civ has become more on more secular allowing a lot of progress in society from women's right to vote to gay marriage.
No, fortunately not. We don't allow slavery anymore and raped women don't have to marry their rapists anymore. So, fortunately not much of Western Civ today is based on the Bible. Fortunately a lot has been "upgraded" with secular humanist and scientific principles.

It really depends on one's definition of slavery. Draft conscription to fight and die in wars is one. Building the pyraminds was a form of taxation as are the schemes of modern nation states to preempt a large chunk of the labor of their citizens that they don't really choose how much is taken out of their salaries or where the money is going.

Again, it is difficult to talk to you when YOU come out with statements like these:
Intelligent people should be able to know who tells the real evidence and who is lying. It is called source criticism. Unfortunately a lot of people lack on that front including you it seems.

Well, guess what? We DON'T know what's really going on if we just take it for granted that the politicians, the media and men in white coats are telling the truth. Going backwards, there is "follow the money" in big pharma, government protected by the way. They decide what you can put into your mouths. This is such a large subject but corn based sweeteners were subsidized by the US government to the downplaying of others which caused a shift in the use of agricultural land. Such onesided protectionism probably is at the root cause of so much disease having to do with processed food.

A society based on real secular humanist and scientific principles has never been really tried, precisely because of the weird marriage between vested interests and technology. Science itself cannot be pinned down, it is not a monolith but always changing given the input of new information.

The big problem is phony science masquerading as SCIENCE - the Aryan race theories, Lysenko genetics. But one can see through such scams easily. When they demand belief and support, backed up by the big guns of the State, then they lose the claim to being scientific.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7079 on: November 23, 2017, 06:43:02 AM »
Yes, a lot of it is, but for example democracy was invented in Greek centuries before Judeo-Christian religions were even born. During the last couple of centuries Western Civ has become more on more secular allowing a lot of progress in society from women's right to vote to gay marriage.

No, fortunately not. We don't allow slavery anymore and raped women don't have to marry their rapists anymore. So, fortunately not much of Western Civ today is based on the Bible. Fortunately a lot has been "upgraded" with secular humanist and scientific principles.

The irony is that in your ancient Greek "democracy" women did not vote and slavery was rampant. It is exactly the slow but constant dissemination and internalization of Christian values, even in secularized version, which gradually got rid of slavery and allowed women to vote.
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