Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 514163 times)

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7080 on: November 23, 2017, 07:09:57 AM »
The irony is that in your ancient Greek "democracy" women did not vote and slavery was rampant. It is exactly the slow but constant dissemination and internalization of Christian values, even in secularized version, which gradually got rid of slavery and allowed women to vote.

I should like simply to endorse this.  But of course, in the 19th century, in the “Christian” United States, women did not vote and slavery was an institution.  So, do we laud Christianity for disseminating the values of women's suffrage and racial equality in the 20th century, or censure Christianity for endorsing oppression by race and gender for 1900 years?  That was 19 centuries of non-dissemination.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7081 on: November 23, 2017, 07:12:41 AM »
I should like simply to endorse this.  But of course, in the 19th century, in the “Christian” United States, women did not vote and slavery was an institution.  So, do we laud Christianity for disseminating the values of women's suffrage and racial equality in the 20th century, or censure Christianity for endorsing oppression by race and gender for 1900 years?  That was 19 centuries of non-dissemination.

Both.  It can both be an inspiration to high ideals and an embodiment of the failure to consistently live up to those ideals.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7082 on: November 23, 2017, 07:14:19 AM »
Both.  It can both be an inspiration to high ideals and an embodiment of the failure to consistently live up to those ideals.

Right now, in the US, it is such a visible embodiment of failure, that it is no wonder that religious faith appears to invite widespread scorn.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7083 on: November 23, 2017, 07:18:04 AM »
Right now, in the US, it is such a visible embodiment of failure, that it is no wonder that religious faith appears to invite widespread scorn.

Oh, I don't disagree with that.
"l do not consider my music as atonal, but rather as non-tonal. I feel the unity of all keys. Atonal music by modern composers admits of no key at all, no feeling of any definite center." - Arnold Schoenberg

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7084 on: November 23, 2017, 07:24:41 AM »
I should like simply to endorse this.  But of course, in the 19th century, in the “Christian” United States, women did not vote and slavery was an institution.  So, do we laud Christianity for disseminating the values of women's suffrage and racial equality in the 20th century, or censure Christianity for endorsing oppression by race and gender for 1900 years?  That was 19 centuries of non-dissemination.

Can you give an example of women voting in non-Western countries before the beginning of the 20th century? Can you give examples of enlightened nation states where common people (not peers or patricians) actually voted for elected officials more than a century and a half ago (if you are talking in 100's of years)?

This is what Britain had at the beginning of the 19th century:
Reform Act 1832 – extended voting rights to adult males who rented propertied land of a certain value, so allowing 1 in 7 males in the UK voting rights.
Representation of the People Act 1884 – addressed imbalances between the boroughs and the countryside; this brought the voting population to 5,500,000, although 40% of males were still disenfranchised because of the property qualification.


The US was slightly ahead but not by much:

By 1856 property ownership requirements were eliminated in all states, giving suffrage to most adult white males. However, tax-paying requirements remained in five states until 1860 and in two states until the 20th century.
15th Amendment (1870): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."


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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7085 on: November 23, 2017, 07:38:11 AM »
Oh, I don't disagree with that.

I suppose my core thesis is, that Christianity is not about Christians patting themselves on the back for being Christian.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7086 on: November 23, 2017, 07:39:04 AM »
I should like simply to endorse this.  But of course, in the 19th century, in the “Christian” United States, women did not vote and slavery was an institution.  So, do we laud Christianity for disseminating the values of women's suffrage and racial equality in the 20th century, or censure Christianity for endorsing oppression by race and gender for 1900 years?  That was 19 centuries of non-dissemination.

Depends on what you mean by Christianity. If you mean what Jesus Christ did, taught and recommended people to do in their turn, it never endorsed oppression, neither by race nor by gender nor by any other criterion. If you mean institutional Christianity in its various guises, then a case-by-case assessment is the fairest.

Both.  It can both be an inspiration to high ideals and an embodiment of the failure to consistently live up to those ideals.

Precisely.

Right now, in the US, it is such a visible embodiment of failure, that it is no wonder that religious faith appears to invite widespread scorn.

That somebody (very many, actually), somewhere (everywhere, actually) does and says bad things while pretending, or even sincerely believing, to be a Christian is nothing new under the sun, nor is the fact that because of this, people who really try to act and live according to Christian love and charity are scorned and ridiculed. I trust and hope, though, that you have not lost your faith, nor are ashamed of publicly acknowledging it, because of Trump.
"The score is not a bible, and I am never afraid to dare. The music is behind those dots." - Vladimir Horowitz

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7087 on: November 23, 2017, 07:40:43 AM »
Love hopes all things.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7088 on: November 23, 2017, 07:47:32 AM »
I suppose my core thesis is, that Christianity is not about Christians patting themselves on the back for being Christian.

No, not patting oneself on the back but being humbly grateful (it's Thanksgiving, after all) for the magnificent edifice of knowledge and ethics that Christianity brought to the world. We can include Western music and its harmonic system, a unique cultural feature.

The truth is that progressive social movements happened in Christian countries first. Application and implentation of basic principles was a long hard process, two steps forward and one back, maybe three steps backward but after 20 centuries, it still moved faster than the evolution of the dinosaurs.

Still there are places in the world, large swaiths, where women have virtually no rights, not even to go out of the house by herself.  There is still slavery in the Arabian peninsiula, human trafficking now of the Rohinga peoples.
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Offline eljr

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7089 on: November 23, 2017, 07:53:41 AM »
progressive social movements happened in Christian countries first.

was that not more a product of affluence?
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7090 on: November 23, 2017, 08:11:27 AM »
was that not more a product of affluence?

Other countries were rich but perhaps not as spread out, more like the top of a pyramid.
Again, where and when did common people have rights to anything, even their lives?
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Offline mc ukrneal

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7091 on: November 23, 2017, 08:26:47 AM »
No, not patting oneself on the back but being humbly grateful (it's Thanksgiving, after all) for the magnificent edifice of knowledge and ethics that Christianity brought to the world.
This is not entirely true if we are honest, yes? I mean the crusades, the rejection of science at times (Gallileo), Inquisition, etc. There have been times that other parts of the world with other beliefs have been a better 'protector' in that sense.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7092 on: November 23, 2017, 08:35:49 AM »
This is not entirely true if we are honest, yes? I mean the crusades, the rejection of science at times (Gallileo), Inquisition, etc. There have been times that other parts of the world with other beliefs have been a better 'protector' in that sense.

What about the Crusades? Sorry, off topic...
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Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7093 on: November 23, 2017, 08:37:33 AM »
Back to the important stuff, namely pervy old men:

Joe Barton may be the victim of so-called revenge porn.  This type of situation is incredibly easy to avoid; just don't take certain types of selfies.  Call it the Weiner Rule.

Al Franken is accused of groping two more women.  I get it, I get it, Franken is Harvard educated, and therefore sooper smart, and his groping was meant ironically.  Why don't the ladies see that?

The universe is change; life is opinion.   Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7094 on: November 23, 2017, 08:44:44 AM »
Back to the important stuff, namely pervy old men:

Joe Barton may be the victim of so-called revenge porn.  This type of situation is incredibly easy to avoid; just don't take certain types of selfies.  Call it the Weiner Rule.

Al Franken is accused of groping two more women.  I get it, I get it, Franken is Harvard educated, and therefore sooper smart, and his groping was meant ironically.  Why don't the ladies see that?

Oh we see it all right, the result of an oversexualized society.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7095 on: November 23, 2017, 09:02:38 AM »
the rejection of science at times (Gallileo)

Galilei's trial had nothing, but really absolutely nothing, to do with any rejection of science. Truth is he got caught up in a political intrigue, not least because of his extremely cantankerous personality; his bitterest ennemies were actually scientists, not cardinals, and his open or disguised ad hominem attacks directed at the pope (and there were many) did nothing but exacerbate the whole mess. Sorry for the off-topic, but this canard really gets on my nerves every time it pops up.

As for the Crusades and the Inquisition (which Inquisition, actually? there have been several different ones), the topics are heavily charged emotionally and politically, but a cool, dispassionate and rational research and analysis of the actual facts and figures (as opposed to uncritically accepting myths and prejudices*) will inevitably lead one to conclusions rather different than the narrative prevailing in the mass media, Hollywood included (first and foremost, actually).

* I do not mean or imply thay you are guilty of that, mind you!

</end of offtopic>
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7096 on: November 23, 2017, 09:42:31 AM »
When his mind is set, you can't Torquemada anything!
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7097 on: November 23, 2017, 11:36:05 AM »
Again, it is difficult to talk to you when YOU come out with statements like these:
Intelligent people should be able to know who tells the real evidence and who is lying. It is called source criticism. Unfortunately a lot of people lack on that front including you it seems.

For me it's frustrating rather than difficult to talk to you.

Well, guess what? We DON'T know what's really going on if we just take it for granted that the politicians, the media and men in white coats are telling the truth. Going backwards, there is "follow the money" in big pharma, government protected by the way. They decide what you can put into your mouths. This is such a large subject but corn based sweeteners were subsidized by the US government to the downplaying of others which caused a shift in the use of agricultural land. Such onesided protectionism probably is at the root cause of so much disease having to do with processed food.

Well, you demonstrate a basic understanding of the situation. You understand the effect of money. Now, who is paid and by who? Who isn't paid? Big Pharma isn't interested of the scientific accuracy or honesty. They are in the business of making money. They even produce false information about Cannabis and Kratom, because those more or less harmless mild drugs have medicative benefits that hinders their business. They buy politicians to do their bidding and one consequence of this is the insane drug war in the US. I agree about the food situation being bad in the US. So, there's not much we disagree about here.

A society based on real secular humanist and scientific principles has never been really tried, precisely because of the weird marriage between vested interests and technology. Science itself cannot be pinned down, it is not a monolith but always changing given the input of new information.

France is pretty secular country and many countries with less atheists/non-religious people are actually based on secular humanist and scientific principles, but I admit religion has it's effect here and there. You have to elaborate what you mean by "weird marriage vested interests and technology." I believe religious people use technology too. At least they come online and debate with us atheists a lot.

Science is indeed always advanging and the society should follow the new understanding and knowledge, change too if needed.

The big problem is phony science masquerading as SCIENCE - the Aryan race theories, Lysenko genetics. But one can see through such scams easily. When they demand belief and support, backed up by the big guns of the State, then they lose the claim to being scientific.

Genetics and race theories have admittedly had their dark days, but a lot of times science is succesful continuation to better knowledge and understanding. Science can go "wrong" briefly before our understanding allow us to correct the mistakes. It's much better than religion, which hardly EVER admits it's errors.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7098 on: November 23, 2017, 02:55:57 PM »
France has been secular for less than 250 years. It had been christian for more than 1000 years before that (since around 500 AD).
One might well argue that Christianity or more probably Western European Christian culture was a ladder (a guile of Reason or of the Weltgeist) that led to modern secularism/humanism and that could and should be cast away once that supposedly more advanced stage was reached. But it is impossible to deny that modern Western science and secularism and humanism arose exactly once in all of human history and this once was in a culture that had been christian for about 1000 years or more before this rise of secularism.  And this development was probably not accidental but there are reasons and causes why it took place.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7099 on: November 23, 2017, 05:02:06 PM »
France has been secular for less than 250 years. It had been christian for more than 1000 years before that (since around 500 AD).
One might well argue that Christianity or more probably Western European Christian culture was a ladder (a guile of Reason or of the Weltgeist) that led to modern secularism/humanism and that could and should be cast away once that supposedly more advanced stage was reached. But it is impossible to deny that modern Western science and secularism and humanism arose exactly once in all of human history and this once was in a culture that had been christian for about 1000 years or more before this rise of secularism.  And this development was probably not accidental but there are reasons and causes why it took place.

Sure.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot