Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 285041 times)

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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7100 on: November 23, 2017, 11:36:05 AM »
Again, it is difficult to talk to you when YOU come out with statements like these:
Intelligent people should be able to know who tells the real evidence and who is lying. It is called source criticism. Unfortunately a lot of people lack on that front including you it seems.

For me it's frustrating rather than difficult to talk to you.

Well, guess what? We DON'T know what's really going on if we just take it for granted that the politicians, the media and men in white coats are telling the truth. Going backwards, there is "follow the money" in big pharma, government protected by the way. They decide what you can put into your mouths. This is such a large subject but corn based sweeteners were subsidized by the US government to the downplaying of others which caused a shift in the use of agricultural land. Such onesided protectionism probably is at the root cause of so much disease having to do with processed food.

Well, you demonstrate a basic understanding of the situation. You understand the effect of money. Now, who is paid and by who? Who isn't paid? Big Pharma isn't interested of the scientific accuracy or honesty. They are in the business of making money. They even produce false information about Cannabis and Kratom, because those more or less harmless mild drugs have medicative benefits that hinders their business. They buy politicians to do their bidding and one consequence of this is the insane drug war in the US. I agree about the food situation being bad in the US. So, there's not much we disagree about here.

A society based on real secular humanist and scientific principles has never been really tried, precisely because of the weird marriage between vested interests and technology. Science itself cannot be pinned down, it is not a monolith but always changing given the input of new information.

France is pretty secular country and many countries with less atheists/non-religious people are actually based on secular humanist and scientific principles, but I admit religion has it's effect here and there. You have to elaborate what you mean by "weird marriage vested interests and technology." I believe religious people use technology too. At least they come online and debate with us atheists a lot.

Science is indeed always advanging and the society should follow the new understanding and knowledge, change too if needed.

The big problem is phony science masquerading as SCIENCE - the Aryan race theories, Lysenko genetics. But one can see through such scams easily. When they demand belief and support, backed up by the big guns of the State, then they lose the claim to being scientific.

Genetics and race theories have admittedly had their dark days, but a lot of times science is succesful continuation to better knowledge and understanding. Science can go "wrong" briefly before our understanding allow us to correct the mistakes. It's much better than religion, which hardly EVER admits it's errors.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7101 on: November 23, 2017, 02:55:57 PM »
France has been secular for less than 250 years. It had been christian for more than 1000 years before that (since around 500 AD).
One might well argue that Christianity or more probably Western European Christian culture was a ladder (a guile of Reason or of the Weltgeist) that led to modern secularism/humanism and that could and should be cast away once that supposedly more advanced stage was reached. But it is impossible to deny that modern Western science and secularism and humanism arose exactly once in all of human history and this once was in a culture that had been christian for about 1000 years or more before this rise of secularism.  And this development was probably not accidental but there are reasons and causes why it took place.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7102 on: November 23, 2017, 05:02:06 PM »
France has been secular for less than 250 years. It had been christian for more than 1000 years before that (since around 500 AD).
One might well argue that Christianity or more probably Western European Christian culture was a ladder (a guile of Reason or of the Weltgeist) that led to modern secularism/humanism and that could and should be cast away once that supposedly more advanced stage was reached. But it is impossible to deny that modern Western science and secularism and humanism arose exactly once in all of human history and this once was in a culture that had been christian for about 1000 years or more before this rise of secularism.  And this development was probably not accidental but there are reasons and causes why it took place.

Sure.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7103 on: November 23, 2017, 09:21:57 PM »
France has been secular for less than 250 years. It had been christian for more than 1000 years before that (since around 500 AD). One might well argue that Christianity or more probably Western European Christian culture was a ladder (a guile of Reason or of the Weltgeist) that led to modern secularism/humanism and that could and should be cast away once that supposedly more advanced stage was reached.

Too bad the French Revolution didn't stick. We would be living in utopia by now.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7104 on: November 24, 2017, 12:09:05 AM »
Science can go "wrong" briefly before our understanding allow us to correct the mistakes. It's much better than religion, which hardly EVER admits it's errors.

The problem is elevating science to the status of religion. Religion is actually more about ethics than belief. I realized that as a kid, questioning what difference could it make to the truth if I or anyone else believed something or not. Would it really change anything? I thought not.

Ideological agreement is only important to those who are shaky in their beliefs and need others to prop them up. It is very difficult to be a minority of one. Someone said that human beings are the only animals who kill and make war over ideas. Why kill to get a point across? Honestly?

However, ideological agreement is at the core of political correctness with deviations punishable by an inquisition that would be more overt if there were not a significant amount of self-censorship. The science behind more than two genders is new and unproven. Yet it is dogma in places like New York City where humongous fines can be inflicted on those who do not use the now state required pronouns beyond that of the accepted usage of the English language at least since Chaucer. Speak-crimes are not coercion? And who decided that you cannot even think hate, because hatred is a feeling, yet it is considered a crime.

The implications of this incident are horrifying:
https://globalnews.ca/news/3872432/andrew-scheer-laurier-university-free-speech/

(Laurier) university has been under fire since teaching assistant Lindsay Shepherd was reprimanded earlier this month, for showing students a YouTube video of University of Toronto professor Jordan Peterson, who has refused to use gender pronouns other than “he” or “she.”... During a meeting earlier this month, faculty and administration at the university accused the TA of showing hate-filled content to students. They said Shepherd created a toxic environment for transgender students and called her transphobic. At one point during the meeting, which Shepherd secretly recorded, one school official likened the situation to supporting Hitler.

This is the result of phony science or at least, unproven science being allied to political power, a horrible noxious mix. They do not outwardly say BELIEVE (as in religion that is honest about it) but persecute and punish if you don't.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7105 on: November 24, 2017, 03:40:47 AM »
The problem is elevating science to the status of religion. Religion is actually more about ethics than belief. I realized that as a kid, questioning what difference could it make to the truth if I or anyone else believed something or not. Would it really change anything? I thought not.

Science has replaced religion rather than taking it's "status". The whole idea of religion is to believe without evidence and not question the given "truth." Why does God allow suffering of children? Because God works in mysterious ways. That is an non-answer telling nothing about why God allows suffering, but instead telling you not to question God's work. It is mysterious, beyond our understanding. The problem with this is that anyone can come up with a religion and all he/she has to do is to make people believers. It is not easy, but can be done. What if all religions in the history were born this way? At least scientology was created by Ron Hubbard. What if Christianity is nothing more than scientology 2000 years ago? How can you know it is not? You can't and that's why we have science. In religions claims are false or true. Science adds the gray colour in between. Pi is about 3.14. Will our universe have an end or does it last forever? We don't know for certain. Scientists work hard to have a better idea. In religion ideas are believed before/without evidence. In science evidence is required and the degree of evidence affects the claims. If the evidence for X is weak, but stronger than for other claims, we say X is probably true. If later there's more evidence for Y, then we can say Y seems to actually be the truth. Scientific facts such as evolution are supported by overwhelming evidence. Someone not understanding how eye could develop in evolution is not evidence against evolution, it is evidence of lack of someone's understanding of evolution. The fundamental differencies between religion and science means that science has replaced religion rather than been elevated to the same status. Secularism means that the "status" of religions become more and more obsolete.
 

Ideological agreement is only important to those who are shaky in their beliefs and need others to prop them up. It is very difficult to be a minority of one. Someone said that human beings are the only animals who kill and make war over ideas. Why kill to get a point across? Honestly?

I don't believe ideas themselves are the reason behind wars. Ideas are used as the tools for more power. Hitler wanted to rule the world and used hate on jews as a tool to reach that goal. Only intelligent animals use tools. Humans are intelligent enough to use ideas as tools for more power. Our moral tendencies isn't on bar of our intelligence and that causes a lot of problems, not only wars.

Nowadays people including myself kill time online to get a point across  :P
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Offline milk

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7106 on: November 24, 2017, 04:24:24 AM »
Oh we see it all right, the result of an oversexualized society.
Your interpretation seems to nicely follow your opinions. Do you have evidence that sexual abuse is worse now than in previous times? Seems like there's good evidence that, at the very least, things were pretty bad in many historical eras and places. One need look no farther than the bible to find condoning of rape and sexual slavery (not to bible bash; it's just a "for instance"). But if we're looking for examples of corrupt wealth and decadence... re: STDs, Tump said,
"It's Vietnam...It is very dangerous. So I'm very, very careful."
And on his views of sex generally: "I moved on her and I failed. I'll admit it. I did try and f*$k her. She was married. I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn't get there. And she was married. Then all of a sudden I see her, she's now got the big phony t*ts and everything. She's totally changed her look." And, "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything... Grab them by the p*%#y. You can do anything."     

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7107 on: November 24, 2017, 07:10:11 AM »
Science has replaced religion rather than taking it's "status". The whole idea of religion is to believe without evidence and not question the given "truth." Why does God allow suffering of children? Because God works in mysterious ways. That is an non-answer telling nothing about why God allows suffering, but instead telling you not to question God's work. It is mysterious, beyond our understanding. The problem with this is that anyone can come up with a religion and all he/she has to do is to make people believers. It is not easy, but can be done. What if all religions in the history were born this way? At least scientology was created by Ron Hubbard. What if Christianity is nothing more than scientology 2000 years ago? How can you know it is not? You can't and that's why we have science. In religions claims are false or true. Science adds the gray colour in between. Pi is about 3.14. Will our universe have an end or does it last forever? We don't know for certain. Scientists work hard to have a better idea. In religion ideas are believed before/without evidence. In science evidence is required and the degree of evidence affects the claims.

If the evidence for X is weak, but stronger than for other claims, we say X is probably true. If later there's more evidence for Y, then we can say Y seems to actually be the truth. Scientific facts such as evolution are supported by overwhelming evidence. Someone not understanding how eye could develop in evolution is not evidence against evolution, it is evidence of lack of someone's understanding of evolution. The fundamental differencies between religion and science means that science has replaced religion rather than been elevated to the same status. Secularism means that the "status" of religions become more and more obsolete.
 

First of all, science did not replace religion. By definition they are still separate and should remain so.
Science is more a tool for understanding phenomena, and certainly not a monolith to be worshipped.
Much of what you say about religion seem to be culled from elementary school bromides.
I already said that religion is more about ethics, relations between people and ultimately the universe, rather than belief. As we grow out of childhood, so should our attitude towards religion or anything else mature, und so weiter.
Unfortunately, excuses for political agendas are couched in quasi-scientific terms, to a cult-like status.
You have to believe in them, OR ELSE! You have to suspend commonsense and your own observations, like 2+2=5, because THEY say so.
Obviously this is more irrational than the tenets of any religion, and dangerous, too.

"I write to discover what I know."
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7108 on: November 24, 2017, 07:12:01 AM »
Your interpretation seems to nicely follow your opinions. Do you have evidence that sexual abuse is worse now than in previous times? Seems like there's good evidence that, at the very least, things were pretty bad in many historical eras and places. One need look no farther than the bible to find condoning of rape and sexual slavery (not to bible bash; it's just a "for instance"). But if we're looking for examples of corrupt wealth and decadence... re: STDs, Tump said,
"It's Vietnam...It is very dangerous. So I'm very, very careful."
And on his views of sex generally: "I moved on her and I failed. I'll admit it. I did try and f*$k her. She was married. I moved on her like a bitch, but I couldn't get there. And she was married. Then all of a sudden I see her, she's now got the big phony t*ts and everything. She's totally changed her look." And, "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything... Grab them by the p*%#y. You can do anything."     

Very neat to tie in Trump to the discussion.
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7109 on: November 24, 2017, 07:39:07 AM »
Science has replaced religion rather than taking it's "status". The whole idea of religion is to believe without evidence and not question the given "truth."

No, you are utterly wrong here, because instead of understanding what religion is, you have luxuriated in a hostile caricature.

And of course (much like others with different perspectives) part of the problem is, you are so sure you are right, you think that even the fallacy of your caricature is somehow a "virtue."
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Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7110 on: November 24, 2017, 08:10:47 AM »
Flynn’s lawyer shuts down communications with Trump’s team, a sign he may be cooperating with Mueller probe.

Mueller has one month to deliver a beautiful Christmas present to Dems, one that can contribute to their taking back Congress and starting in on impeachment proceedings.  Please, Mr Mueller, make it happen!  The paralysis will be beautiful.  (I can wait until the new year, too; really, as long as he delivers some type of surefire knockout blow before the Manafort trial begins, I'm happy.)  Something else that will be beautiful is the moral aghastitude sure to be displayed by Dems, not least on this very forum, as they routinely resort to their mindless exhortations to Republicans to stand up to/denounce/distance themselves from/other generic morally righteous act Trump.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7111 on: November 24, 2017, 09:22:34 AM »
First of all, science did not replace religion. By definition they are still separate and should remain so.
Science is more a tool for understanding phenomena, and certainly not a monolith to be worshipped.
Much of what you say about religion seem to be culled from elementary school bromides.
I already said that religion is more about ethics, relations between people and ultimately the universe, rather than belief. As we grow out of childhood, so should our attitude towards religion or anything else mature, und so weiter.
Unfortunately, excuses for political agendas are couched in quasi-scientific terms, to a cult-like status.
You have to believe in them, OR ELSE! You have to suspend commonsense and your own observations, like 2+2=5, because THEY say so.
Obviously this is more irrational than the tenets of any religion, and dangerous, too.

Science has replaced for millions what religion was in the past. The value of science is acknowledged, not worshipped. The school system in Finland is superior to that of US. Ethics can come from other places than religion such as secular humanism. As a matured person I think individuals can practice religion if they want (freedom!), but (political) decisions in the society concerning all people should not be based on religion, but on science and secular humanism. Secular humanism is the best quarantee for all religious people to have the freedom to practice their religion as well as for non-religious people to not practice any religion. Scientific literacy gives tools to evaluate given scientific claims removing the need to "just" believe. Sometimes commonsense is different form the truth. It's actually quite common (pun intended). If your observations are against scientific claims, maybe you should find out why? Is the method of observing correct? Do you evaluate the results correctly? Or is the scientific claim wrong? Real science never asks you to believe without evidence.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7112 on: November 24, 2017, 09:32:11 AM »
No, you are utterly wrong here, because instead of understanding what religion is, you have luxuriated in a hostile caricature.

And of course (much like others with different perspectives) part of the problem is, you are so sure you are right, you think that even the fallacy of your caricature is somehow a "virtue."

My understanding is what it is, perhaps not on the level of a Ph. D. I have to manage with my Masters Degree. Being so highly educated and coming from one of the least religious areas of your country you certainly do defend religion here. I can only ask why?

Demonstrate my fallacies and I admit being wrong.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7113 on: November 24, 2017, 09:55:41 AM »
Science has replaced for millions what religion was in the past. The value of science is acknowledged, not worshipped. The school system in Finland is superior to that of US. Ethics can come from other places than religion such as secular humanism. As a matured person I think individuals can practice religion if they want (freedom!), but (political) decisions in the society concerning all people should not be based on religion, but on science and secular humanism. Secular humanism is the best quarantee for all religious people to have the freedom to practice their religion as well as for non-religious people to not practice any religion. Scientific literacy gives tools to evaluate given scientific claims removing the need to "just" believe. Sometimes commonsense is different form the truth. It's actually quite common (pun intended). If your observations are against scientific claims, maybe you should find out why? Is the method of observing correct? Do you evaluate the results correctly? Or is the scientific claim wrong? Real science never asks you to believe without evidence.

     Everyone ought to be on guard against triumphal belief. Science questions its own discoveries which allows it to progress. The notion was captured by the statistician George Box, who said "Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful." Another way of getting to a secure position is to hold that the meaning of propositions lies in the method that produces them.

     That's about as much security as one can reasonably expect to have.  What can be believed without evidence can be rejected without evidence. No disproof is involved, I don't bother to disprove the flying saucers that are supposed to be all over the place messing with us, like most bogus claims the lack of evidence in favor of them is enough. Most of what isn't true is just given up on, not disproved.
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Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7114 on: November 24, 2017, 04:56:19 PM »

     Trump is on TV making a speech and says "I'm highly educated. I know words. I have the best words."

     
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Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7115 on: November 24, 2017, 05:28:36 PM »
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/conservatives-have-a-breathtaking-plan-for-trump-to-pack-the-courts/2017/11/21/b7ce90d4-ce43-11e7-9d3a-bcbe2af58c3a_story.html

So the right is panicking and trying to fill as many lifetime appointments to the courts before they are presumably wiped out in 2018, and the left is panicking over the right’s panic-stricken and unworkable plan to do this.

Maybe the US should consider just......... not having lifetime appointments?

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7116 on: November 24, 2017, 05:51:11 PM »
Maybe the US should consider just......... not having lifetime appointments?


Technically, they do not.  "The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour[.]"  Practically, they do have lifetime appointments.  All that's needed to change this is a constitutional amendment.  That will happen soon after the Electoral College is abolished.
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Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7117 on: November 24, 2017, 06:33:24 PM »
I mean if it's not in the constitution you can just like.... pass a federal law then? Which says supreme court judges serve for 20 years, lower court judges for 10, or whatever, and thus there's a predictable timetable for when judges will be retiring and no one will panic anymore and the Federalist Society can rest easy that losing one election to a Democrat doesn't mean they're all out of work for the next 50 years? I'm so smart, someone should make me a senator

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7118 on: November 24, 2017, 06:46:41 PM »
I mean if it's not in the constitution you can just like.... pass a federal law then?


That would violate the "good behavior" clause.  I just pointed out that there is no language in the Constitution specifying life appointments in those specific terms.

Rick Perry advocated 18 year terms for SCOTUS judges, with a new one appointed every two years.  Something similar could be worked out for lower court judges.  Just as soon as the Constitution is amended, or a new Constitutional Convention is called.  (Every few months, the mainstream press runs a story about conservative efforts to have state legislatures call for a Constitutional Convention.  Maybe it'll happen.)

The AmPo article you linked seems to indicate that some excitable conservatives are engaging in wishful thinking.
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Offline Christo

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #7119 on: November 25, 2017, 05:02:40 AM »
No, you are utterly wrong here, because instead of understanding what religion is, you have luxuriated in a hostile caricature.

And of course (much like others with different perspectives) part of the problem is, you are so sure you are right, you think that even the fallacy of your caricature is somehow a "virtue."

Hear hear!  ;)
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