Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 581716 times)

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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11500 on: July 20, 2018, 07:56:27 PM »
This conservative would take Obama back in a nanosecond

"How I miss Barack Obama.

And I say that as someone who worked to defeat him: I was a foreign policy adviser to John McCain in 2008 and to Mitt Romney in 2012. I criticized Obama’s “lead from behind” foreign policy that resulted in a premature pullout from Iraq and a failure to stop the slaughter in Syria. I thought he was too weak on Iran and too tough on Israel. I feared that Obamacare would be too costly. I fumed that he was too professorial and too indecisive. I was left cold by his arrogance and his cult of personality.

Now I would take Obama back in a nanosecond. His presidency appears to be a lost golden age when reason and morality reigned. All of his faults, real as they were, fade into insignificance compared with the crippling defects of his successor. And his strengths — seriousness, dignity, intellect, probity, dedication to ideals larger than self — shine all the more clearly in retrospect.

Those thoughts are prompted by watching Obama’s speech in South Africa on the 100th anniversary of Nelson Mandela’s birth. I was moved nearly to tears by his eloquent defense of a liberal world order that President Trump appears bent on destroying."

Offline Christo

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11501 on: July 21, 2018, 12:43:10 AM »
FBI seized recording of Trump and Cohen discussing payments for story of ex-model who alleged affair
Not sure if this news isn't brought - by Giulani, isn't it? - as a deliberate distraction of this weeks real disasters.  ::)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11502 on: July 21, 2018, 03:54:16 AM »
Only those who don't understand the simplist things.

Okay. Then by your own definition you (who apparently don't understand this simple thing: that "oligarchy" --- in the etymological sense of "the few ruling over the many" --- was, is, and forever will be the natural and inescapable form of government of any given country past, present and future, be it the Roman Empire, the USA, Putin's Russia or your beloved Finland, and that "democracy" --- in the etymological sense of "the rule of the people" --- was, is and forever will be a fiction) are an ignorant moron.
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Offline André

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11503 on: July 21, 2018, 04:08:40 AM »
This conservative would take Obama back in a nanosecond

"How I miss Barack Obama.

And I say that as someone who worked to defeat him: I was a foreign policy adviser to John McCain in 2008 and to Mitt Romney in 2012. I criticized Obama’s “lead from behind” foreign policy that resulted in a premature pullout from Iraq and a failure to stop the slaughter in Syria. I thought he was too weak on Iran and too tough on Israel. I feared that Obamacare would be too costly. I fumed that he was too professorial and too indecisive. I was left cold by his arrogance and his cult of personality.

Now I would take Obama back in a nanosecond. His presidency appears to be a lost golden age when reason and morality reigned. All of his faults, real as they were, fade into insignificance compared with the crippling defects of his successor. And his strengths — seriousness, dignity, intellect, probity, dedication to ideals larger than self — shine all the more clearly in retrospect.

Those thoughts are prompted by watching Obama’s speech in South Africa on the 100th anniversary of Nelson Mandela’s birth. I was moved nearly to tears by his eloquent defense of a liberal world order that President Trump appears bent on destroying."

The author was foreign policy adviser to republican presidential cendidates John McCain and Mitt Romney. The whole article is worth reading. It’s as if it’s from a different world and era and yet, it’s from the same party and not that distant in time... ::)

Offline eljr

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11504 on: July 21, 2018, 04:16:34 AM »
The author was foreign policy adviser to republican presidential cendidates John McCain and Mitt Romney. The whole article is worth reading. It’s as if it’s from a different world and era and yet, it’s from the same party and not that distant in time... ::)

it' s not the same party, it's the party with the same name.

Think of conjoined twins.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11505 on: July 21, 2018, 04:24:12 AM »
it' s not the same party, it's the party with the same name.

The business of each and every party is twofold: (1) to get in power by winning elections, and (2) to stay in power as long as possible by winning subsequent elections --- period.

Everything else is naivety and wishful thinking.

"In Heaven I shall hear again." - Beethoven

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11506 on: July 21, 2018, 04:38:29 AM »
The business of each and every party is twofold: (1) to get in power by winning elections, and (2) to stay in power as long as possible by winning subsequent elections --- period.

Everything else is naivety and wishful thinking.

Not everything else, surely.  There is the question of governing.

Have the Never Trumpers been naive, and wishful?  I suppose many of us Americans have been, not reckoning on the appetite of a large portion of the electorate for activism and rule by decree, and how ready they were to jettison our democratic norms to achieve their purpose.

To repeat:  Although Trump is A Problem, in many ways, he is largely but a symptom of larger problems.

He's there, because a significant number of Americans want him there.
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Offline Mahlerian

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11507 on: July 21, 2018, 05:51:41 AM »
it' s not the same party, it's the party with the same name.

Think of conjoined twins.

There was a relatively consistent alignment in the direction of Trump-esque populism over the course of Obama's presidency; it just took that long for the wing of the GOP that wanted someone like Trump to gain enough of a voice in the primaries.  Even though the Tea Party's ostensible platform was the opposite of what Trump is doing in several ways, the populist anger that they tapped into helped to form Trump's coalition.
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11508 on: July 21, 2018, 06:43:24 AM »
Not everything else, surely.  There is the question of governing.

"Governing" is simply what the party or person which / who won the latter election do until the next election. Nothing else, nothing more. If you happen to agree with them , you call it "good governing". If you don't, you call it "bad governing". That is all.

I remember you praising Ronald Reagan for being principled, as opposed to Trump. I do wonder if you praised him (Reagan, that is)  for being principled during his presidency.

Quote
Have the Never Trumpers been naive, and wishful? 

Of course they have. Just as naive and wishful as the Trumpers have.

Quote
I suppose many of us Americans have been, not reckoning on the appetite of a large portion of the electorate for activism and rule by decree, and how ready they were to jettison our democratic norms to achieve their purpose.

To repeat:  Although Trump is A Problem, in many ways, he is largely but a symptom of larger problems.

He's there, because a significant number of Americans want him there.

Nope. Not at all. He's there because the Republican Party put him there.

I said and I maintain: each and every so-called "democracy" --- or "constitutional republic", as is the actual case of the USA --- is nothing else than a partycracy, ie an oligarchy.
"In Heaven I shall hear again." - Beethoven

Offline North Star

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11509 on: July 21, 2018, 07:48:00 AM »
I said and I maintain: each and every so-called "democracy" --- or "constitutional republic", as is the actual case of the USA --- is nothing else than a partycracy, ie an oligarchy.
Of course it's true that in most representative democracies the politicians and their parties form a sort of ruling class. But it's dangerous to conflate systems where people have a power to vote out the politicians or parties that they are dissatisfied with, with systems where there are one or two ruling parties or interest groups that are effectively impossible to remove from power. There are ways to make representative democracy more representative and less corrupt (say, by stopping gerrymandering, limitless election donations, and political nominations of judges, and making sure that all people who have a right to vote may do so freely, for starters). But we all know you just miss the good old days of the Kingdom of Romania.  ::)

Nope. Not at all. He's there because the Republican Party put him there.
That is not exactly the picture I got from the Republican primaries, where he certainly didn't seem to be the Party favourite. Also, I thought we had established that it was Putin who put him there.  0:)
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Offline Florestan

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11510 on: July 21, 2018, 08:07:24 AM »
Of course it's true that in most representative democracies the politicians and their parties form a sort of ruling class.

A sort of?  ???

Good grief! --- they are the ruling class, period.


Quote
you just miss the good old days of the Kingdom of Romania.  ::)

The Kingdom of Romania was not perfect: it had a lot of drawbacks and shortcomings --- but I'd rather have it over the Socialist Republic of Romania, or the Romania of today, any time of the day --- and I defy you to prove me wrong.

Quote
That is not exactly the picture I got from the Republican primaries, where he certainly didn't seem to be the Party favourite. Also, I thought we had established that it was Putin who put him there.  0:)

Putin is to America what Soros is to Hungary...  ;D
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 08:13:36 AM by Florestan »
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Offline bwv 1080

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11511 on: July 21, 2018, 08:22:10 AM »
This conservative would take Obama back in a nanosecond

"How I miss Barack Obama.

And I say that as someone who worked to defeat him: I was a foreign policy adviser to John McCain in 2008 and to Mitt Romney in 2012. I criticized Obama’s “lead from behind” foreign policy that resulted in a premature pullout from Iraq and a failure to stop the slaughter in Syria. I thought he was too weak on Iran and too tough on Israel. I feared that Obamacare would be too costly. I fumed that he was too professorial and too indecisive. I was left cold by his arrogance and his cult of personality.

Now I would take Obama back in a nanosecond. His presidency appears to be a lost golden age when reason and morality reigned. All of his faults, real as they were, fade into insignificance compared with the crippling defects of his successor. And his strengths — seriousness, dignity, intellect, probity, dedication to ideals larger than self — shine all the more clearly in retrospect.

Those thoughts are prompted by watching Obama’s speech in South Africa on the 100th anniversary of Nelson Mandela’s birth. I was moved nearly to tears by his eloquent defense of a liberal world order that President Trump appears bent on destroying."

FWIW Max Boot is a neocon who has never met a foreign intervention he didnt like.  As Obama did nothing to question our overseas military entanglements, of course Max is nostalgic.  Neocons like Boot and the Weekly Standard crowd see the possibility of stemming the backlash against 30 years of their failed policies by tacking to appear as principled ‘anti-Trump conservatives’.


https://medium.com/theyoungturks/the-pathetic-rehabilitation-of-max-boot-57efc359d21f
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Offline North Star

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11512 on: July 21, 2018, 08:35:43 AM »
Quote
The Kingdom of Romania was not perfect: it had a lot of drawbacks and shortcomings --- but I'd rather have it over the Socialist Republic of Romania, or the Romania of today, any time of the day --- and I defy you to prove me wrong.

Putin is to America what Soros is to Hungary...  ;D
Did the Kingdom of Hungary have CDs or the Internet? Or vaccines... :laugh: But yeah, it's true that democracy works better in some places than others, for all sorts of reasons. And it's true that not all dictators or monarchs have been equally bad for their people. Maybe they should try bringing back the good old lottery that they Athenians used.
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11513 on: July 22, 2018, 08:44:43 AM »
Trump Administration Neuters Nuclear Safety Board

"Under a new order from the Energy Department, a nuclear safety board will have to fight for information about and access to nuclear laboratories. In the past, the board has brought serious problems at those labs to light.

The Trump administration has quietly taken steps that may inhibit independent oversight of its most high-risk nuclear facilities, including some buildings at Los Alamos National Laboratory, a Department of Energy document shows.

An order published on the department’s website in mid-May outlines new limits on the Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board — including preventing the board from accessing sensitive information, imposing additional legal hurdles on board staff, and mandating that Energy Department officials speak “with one voice” when communicating with the board."

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11514 on: July 22, 2018, 10:20:32 AM »
He's there, because a significant number of Americans want him there.

Not quite:
He's there because a significant number of Americans and a number of significant Russians want him there and were willing to either vote or commit crimes to see it happen.

 

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11515 on: July 22, 2018, 10:30:08 AM »

Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11516 on: July 23, 2018, 07:51:27 AM »
FWIW Max Boot is a neocon who has never met a foreign intervention he didnt like.  As Obama did nothing to question our overseas military entanglements, of course Max is nostalgic.  Neocons like Boot and the Weekly Standard crowd see the possibility of stemming the backlash against 30 years of their failed policies by tacking to appear as principled ‘anti-Trump conservatives’.


https://medium.com/theyoungturks/the-pathetic-rehabilitation-of-max-boot-57efc359d21f

     Yes, the BushBama era had intervention in it. There were arguments about it, with sides, each committed to strategies that IMV had holes in them.

     What I felt the lack of on both sides was an acknowledgement that whether you move war forward or back, wherever/whenever you fight you have to build and stay to the finish. Where this hurts is for example when neocons get their way and have a war the other side pivots from an arguably positive prevention strategy to a negative one. They don't adapt and try to make it work, they reinforce the worst neocon tendency to win a big fight then get out of town. The neocons get most of the blame for cutting and running, and of course they should, but when you look at how liberal cut and runners cooperate with their neocon brothers, yes, that I'm not nostalgic for. A well designed war on any scale should have an appropriately designed Marshall Plan attached to it. And for all the peacemongers out there, this wouldn't make wars more frequent, would it?
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Offline arpeggio

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11517 on: July 23, 2018, 08:26:38 AM »
Reagan is turning in his grave.

Mark Camphouse, the American composer, composed a work that was like Copeland's Lincoln Portrait.  It is called Shining City and it is set to the speeches of Reagan.  I listen to this work and the words of Reagan and think what the Trumptsters have done and I am sickened.  They have made a mockery of Reaganism.

Link to recording of work: https://kjos.com/index.php/shining-city-the.html

I performed this work and Newt Gingrich was the narrator.  My respect for Gingrich went out the window when he threw in his support for Trump.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #11519 on: July 23, 2018, 08:49:43 AM »
Rep. Will Hurd (R-Tex.), a former CIA agent, wrote in the New York Times on Thursday:

Over the course of my career as an undercover officer in the C.I.A., I saw Russian intelligence manipulate many people. I never thought I would see the day when an American president would be one of them.

The president’s failure to defend the United States intelligence community’s unanimous conclusions of Russian meddling in the 2016 election and condemn Russian covert counterinfluence campaigns and his standing idle on the world stage while a Russian dictator spouted lies confused many but should concern all Americans. By playing into Vladimir Putin’s hands, the leader of the free world actively participated in a Russian disinformation campaign that legitimized Russian denial and weakened the credibility of the United States to both our friends and foes abroad.


Let’s repeat that:  The POTUS actively participated in a Russian disinformation campaign that legitimized Russian denial and weakened the credibility of the United States to both our friends and foes abroad.

Meanwhile, Trump supporters profess surprise that some of us are still “hung up on the rhetoric.”

Disinformation is not rhetoric.  And apart from playing into a Russian disinformation campaign, disinformation is the POTUS’s default manner of communication.

A POTUS cannot govern, by disinformation.

All supporters of Trump, are playing into the Russian disinformation game.  All of them, contributing to the erosion of this country.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot