Author Topic: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)  (Read 1522847 times)

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Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15660 on: March 17, 2019, 05:55:20 AM »
What has Pelosi done? She calls herself a master legislator. What is the legislation she masterfully legislated? Obamacare? An originally right-win think thank (The Heritage Foundation) healthcare system to protect the intrests of insurance companies renamed to Obamacare (because Overton Window had moved to the right so much that the Democrats are as right as the Republicans used to be). She got that barely legistlated during Democratic supermajority instead of fighting for medicare for all. Wow, how impressive! Well, at least the insurance companies and Big Pharma who had been funneling money to her were happy, but American people suffer from the worst healthcare system in the developped countries. Yeah, maybe it's time for fresher politicians who aren't that corrupted and actually fight for the things that need to be fixed.  Not a master legislator perhaps, but she is great at getting donor money. A lot of people wanted Barbara Lee to be the speaker of House instead of her.

The corporate Democrats take tons of money from corporations and in return do the bidding of corpotations. You'd knew this if you weren't brainwashed by the corporate media (doing the bidding of corpotations as well) to be blind to this corruption and oligarchy. Finland is one of the least corrupted countries in the World so I see the corporate corruption in the US from here over the Atlantic Ocean! You'd knew that the corporate media does non-stop smearing of the left to protect the establishment.

That's why Ilhan Omar's mild criticism of Israel government breaking international law and AIPAC trying to influence American politics is called antisemitism as if Ilhan Omar was against jews and people in Israel in general. She is not. She has criticised Saudi-Arabia too, but for some reason nobody calls her an islamaphobe. Just think about how cracy that is. If she had criticized any other country (say Poland or Switzerland) in the World nobody would care, but if you do any kind of criticism of Israel, it's antisemitism!

That's why AOC is called (fearmongered) a socialist when she is a social democrat. She is not suggesting Apple and Walmart should be publicly owned. She is not banning private ownership. She is suggesting that in some areas of economy such as healthcare and education socialistic ideas should be implemented because empirically it leads to better results in the society and is morally right. The US already has socialistic police, fire department and military. Adding healthcare and education to that wouldn't turn the US into Venezuela because Apple and Warmart would still be privately owned. It would move the US toward countries such as Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland, countries that beat the US on almost every relevant measure (happiness, life expectancy, infant mortality, etc.). Finland has the second lowest (2.3 per 1000 births) infant mortality rate under age 5 in the World after Iceland. The US is number 32 (6.5 per 1000 births), but at least the US beats Chile and Turkey! Denmark is the worst of the Nordic countries in this regard (4.4 per 1000 births) but still clearly better than the US. AOC didn't take money from corporations and doesnt' need to do their bidding. Instead she can do what a decent politician should do: Fight for the people to make their life better. Of course the establishment doesn't like that at all so she is smeared in the corporate media. It's up to your stupidity and degree of corp4orate brainwahing whether you see that or not.

You seem to be unaware of the effect of social issues.  Much of Trump's support comes from people who are against abortion, against gun control, against immigration, against gay marriage, etc. Much of Democrat support comes from people who are the reverse of that. For them, it's not the problem of the 1 percent vs the 99 percent that is important.  And for Trump supporters, establishment=social liberals, which means Trump, being as illiberal as they come, is anti-establishment.

Omar, for your information, has a past history of antiSemitism, so ir's fair to say she's against Jews. In the most recent remarks, she picked out support of Israel to criticize the role of money in politics. She could have picked out other things (you yourself chose to illustrate the point by using Big Pharma) but she chose Jews, and used the trope of foreign loyalty that has been a theme of antiSemitism since Pharoah used it as an excuse to enslave the Jews in Egypt.  In fact, she shares the Left's hate of a country that was founded explicitly, and remains, as a socialist democracy.

Pelosi and Obama were faced, in dealing with health care,  with the GOP's ability to filibuster most things in the Senate. That blocked any realistic reform.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 05:58:02 AM by JBS »

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Offline drogulus

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15661 on: March 17, 2019, 06:16:57 AM »
     
But aren't the Trump-sympathizers also of the opinion that the "Clinton-wing" oft the Dems is too corporatist? If they agree with the Finnish "socialist", there might be some truth to it.
One of the funniest quips I read (and this might have been before Trump was elected) was that the two main political parties in the US try to convince the voters that they are as far apart as A and Z when they are more like M and N. Now with Trump and the likes of AOC (although words are wind, it's as easy to brag about plans for covering the country with zero-energy monorails as it is to brag about the biggest border wall you will ever see) it might almost be as far apart as K and P.

    On godgunsgays there's a real divide, on economics people want what they want and they hope the party they support on godgunsgays will deliver it. Repubs have figured out that so long as they stay on side with their voters on the social issues they can side with their donors on economics.

    Gerrymandering and voter fraud fraud is not just to protect Repub pols from Dem voters, it protects them from their own voters.
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Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15662 on: March 17, 2019, 06:51:50 AM »
Perhaps English isn't your first language, but shenanigans is a poor word choice applied to sexual assault.


Shenanigans is the perfect word to describe alleged activity.


Thanks for the out of context quote.

Googled "Who likes Nancy Pelosi": First link: The Hill Poll: Three-quarters of Americans say Nancy Pelosi should be replaced, including half of Democrats

Maybe that means 1/4 of Americans love Nancy Pelosi, maybe it means 1/4 of Americans are clueless.


Yet another perfect example of your profound ignorance of America and American politics.  First, national polls regarding elected members of the House are worthless.  Clearly, at least 50% plus one of the voters in Pelosi's district liked her enough to reelect her last year.  Second, you didn't use Google to find any examples of things she has done that make people like her, especially people in her district.  All politics is local, and all that.

Now I also know that you don't know how to use Google.


I don't think I know everything and since I am a guy from Finland I know my limits


This statement is directly contradicted by your prior post on Ms Pelosi.


This is precisely the problem, yes. The nukes are not going to go away soon, the rest of the military has not been terribly impressive in their last few exploits and the third and fourth factor might last another decade or two. Then the sh*t will probably hit the fan big time.


I give the US until about mid-century, maybe as late as the end of the third quarter of the century, to maintain its current dominance.  Extraterritorial power is tied directly to US economic power and the status of its currency.  The only viable challengers to US dominance are a unified Europe and China.  Europe is far from unified today, with no currently viable way toward effective policy unification in sight, and China is not quite all it is cracked up to be economically.  Not only will the Chinese not loosen capital controls anytime in the near future - which is a necessary condition for international financial dominance - as was recently reported in various outlets, Chinese GDP and GDP growth rates have been routinely overstated for years.  Official Chinese GDP figures are about 16% overstated.  The disparity between aggregated provincial GDP figures and reported national figures have been known for decades, but this new-ish research casts some doubt on the effectiveness of current growth strategies.  Those, of course, exclude concerns about the sustainability of those policies and the effect, over the next several decades, of the long-term consequences of enforced demographic policies.

As has been demonstrated in multiple media outlets, and on this forum basically every day, a whole lot of people are entirely beholden, intellectually and emotionally, to the existing order.  They just can't grasp life without it.  Yet the current form of dominance the US still enjoys and will continue to enjoy for at least a few more decades, is an anomaly.  Were the US truly exceptional - which it is not - it would begin dismantling its existing bloated, unsustainable, and strategically misguided international system and military, and begin the transition to something more rational and effective.  Shaking off messianic dreams is tough, though.  Hopefully, great power war involving the US directly can be avoided as the current international system further erodes, dies, and gets replaced.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15663 on: March 17, 2019, 09:07:27 AM »
You seem to be unaware of the effect of social issues.  Much of Trump's support comes from people who are against abortion, against gun control, against immigration, against gay marriage, etc. Much of Democrat support comes from people who are the reverse of that. For them, it's not the problem of the 1 percent vs the 99 percent that is important.  And for Trump supporters, establishment=social liberals, which means Trump, being as illiberal as they come, is anti-establishment.

Dems did not come out enough to vote for Hillary Clinton because she sucks. Reps. did vote enough so Trump didn't won the popular vote, but electrorate. About 90 % of Americans support common sense gun regulation. If it is Trump vs Bernie, do people vote for Trump because they are pro life or do they vote for Bernie because they want single-payer healthcare etc. ? I believe some Trumpsters will vote for Bernie and that win bring Bernie the victory. The smartest of those who voted for Trump have seen that Trump is NOT anti-establishment.

Omar, for your information, has a past history of antiSemitism, so ir's fair to say she's against Jews. In the most recent remarks, she picked out support of Israel to criticize the role of money in politics. She could have picked out other things (you yourself chose to illustrate the point by using Big Pharma) but she chose Jews, and used the trope of foreign loyalty that has been a theme of antiSemitism since Pharoah used it as an excuse to enslave the Jews in Egypt.  In fact, she shares the Left's hate of a country that was founded explicitly, and remains, as a socialist democracy.

According to who? Ben Shapiro? Sean Hannity? For your information the opposition in Israel opposes Netanjahu and the right-wing government just as Ilhan Omar does. Are you saying half of people in Israel are antisemitists? The left doesn't hate Israel or Jews. Bernie Sanders himself is a jew and supports Ilhan Omar! The US protects the intrests of Israel to an insane level. Why? Why Israel can break international law and violate the human rights of palestinians? Why does the US give $38 billion to Israel every year? It is not antisemitism to question all of this! At the same time nobody gives a fuck about palestinians! Fucking insane!

Pelosi and Obama were faced, in dealing with health care,  with the GOP's ability to filibuster most things in the Senate. That blocked any realistic reform.

They got blocked because they suck at what they do.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15664 on: March 17, 2019, 09:26:26 AM »

Yet another perfect example of your profound ignorance of America and American politics.  First, national polls regarding elected members of the House are worthless.  Clearly, at least 50% plus one of the voters in Pelosi's district liked her enough to reelect her last year.  Second, you didn't use Google to find any examples of things she has done that make people like her, especially people in her district.  All politics is local, and all that.

Now I also know that you don't know how to use Google.

I am too lazy to facy check/debunk every idiotic right wing claim. Nancy Pelosi's net worth is something like $60 million. You think it's easy for lefties to defeat her? Name recognition and money determine a lot who wins. How well known is Preston Picus? Barry Hermanson? How much has the corporate media endorsed these candidates compared to Nancy Pelosi? You are very naive if you think Nancy Pelosi won the election because she had the best political agenda. She won because she is a member of the establishment that has rigged the system!



Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW track "Ecclesiastical Secularism"

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15665 on: March 17, 2019, 10:09:40 AM »
I am too lazy to facy check/debunk every idiotic right wing claim. Nancy Pelosi's net worth is something like $60 million. You think it's easy for lefties to defeat her? Name recognition and money determine a lot who wins. How well known is Preston Picus? Barry Hermanson? How much has the corporate media endorsed these candidates compared to Nancy Pelosi? You are very naive if you think Nancy Pelosi won the election because she had the best political agenda. She won because she is a member of the establishment that has rigged the system!


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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15666 on: March 17, 2019, 11:50:09 AM »

Shenanigans is the perfect word to describe alleged activity.

Get a dictionary and learn how to use it. Or develop an ear.

Offline 71 dB

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15667 on: March 17, 2019, 12:00:17 PM »

The gift that keeps on giving.

Attitude of the year.  ::)
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15668 on: March 17, 2019, 02:36:29 PM »
Fox News suspended host Jeanine Pirro over Omar comments

"Fox News host Jeanine Pirro was reportedly suspended by the network following comments she made earlier this month about Rep. Ilhan Omar's (D-Minn.) loyalty to the Constitution.

CNN reported the suspension on Sunday, citing an unidentified source familiar with the matter.

Pirro's show, "Justice with Jeanine," did not air Saturday evening during its regularly scheduled block and was replaced with an episode of "Scandalous."

Pirro suggested during her March 9 show that Omar's religious beliefs were at odds with the U.S. Constitution.

"Omar wears a hijab, which, according to the Quran 33:59, tells women to cover so they won’t get molested." Pirro said. "Is her adherence to this Islamic doctrine indicative of her adherence to Sharia law, which in itself is antithetical to the United States Constitution?"

Fox News condemned Pirro's comments, saying it had addressed the matter directly with the host.

"We strongly condemn Jeanine Pirro’s comments about Rep. Ilhan Omar," the network said in a statement last week. "They do not reflect those of the network and we have addressed the matter with her directly."

President Trump in a tweet Sunday called on Fox News to "bring back" Pirro, who is a supporter of the president.

"Bring back @JudgeJeanine Pirro. The Radical Left Democrats, working closely with their beloved partner, the Fake News Media, is using every trick in the book to SILENCE a majority of our Country," he wrote in the tweet.

Offline Todd

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15669 on: March 17, 2019, 03:01:15 PM »
Get a dictionary and learn how to use it. Or develop an ear.


Attitude of the year.  ::)


Meh.
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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15670 on: March 17, 2019, 03:24:41 PM »
Fmr Fox News reporter asks Congress: subpoena me to override NDA

"In an exclusive news-making interview, the lawyer for a former Fox reporter, Nancy Erika Smith, tells Ari Melber that Congress can lawfully override a Non-Disclosure Agreement preventing her client from speaking about reports that Fox News killed the Stormy Daniels story before the 2016 election, because Rupert Murdoch wanted Trump to win. Former House Watergate lawyer, David Dorsen, agreed that this could be a valid way for Democrats to override the Fox News NDA."

Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15671 on: March 17, 2019, 03:46:17 PM »


to which someone replied:

Trump was sent by a god, alright. Mammon, or maybe a trickster god like Loki.

Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15672 on: March 17, 2019, 04:56:06 PM »
Dems did not come out enough to vote for Hillary Clinton because she sucks. Reps. did vote enough so Trump didn't won the popular vote, but electrorate. About 90 % of Americans support common sense gun regulation. If it is Trump vs Bernie, do people vote for Trump because they are pro life or do they vote for Bernie because they want single-payer healthcare etc. ? I believe some Trumpsters will vote for Bernie and that win bring Bernie the victory. The smartest of those who voted for Trump have seen that Trump is NOT anti-establishment.

According to who? Ben Shapiro? Sean Hannity? For your information the opposition in Israel opposes Netanjahu and the right-wing government just as Ilhan Omar does. Are you saying half of people in Israel are antisemitists? The left doesn't hate Israel or Jews. Bernie Sanders himself is a jew and supports Ilhan Omar! The US protects the intrests of Israel to an insane level. Why? Why Israel can break international law and violate the human rights of palestinians? Why does the US give $38 billion to Israel every year? It is not antisemitism to question all of this! At the same time nobody gives a fuck about palestinians! Fucking insane!

They got blocked because they suck at what they do.

You are correct about why people did not vote for Hillary. Your confidence in Bernie is however misplaced. His only advantage is name recognition. And perhaps it has escaped your notice, but Bernie has made his millions in politics just like Pelosi. (Actually, not just like her, because IIRC she inherited a considerable fortune from her father, a big city mayor.) There are a number of candidates now in the field who have better prospects (and from a leftist perspective, better policy proposals).

As for Omar, she is not against the current government of Israel.  She is against Israel, period. She advocates the full Palestinian program of a Palestine that has been ethnically cleansed of Jews. Her statements from before her campaign for Congress make that clear.  If Kulinski makes it sound otherwise, then you have a clear example of why you should be as skeptical of him as you would be of any other news source.

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Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15673 on: March 17, 2019, 05:01:13 PM »


to which someone replied:

Trump was sent by a god, alright. Mammon, or maybe a trickster god like Loki.

In fact, If God sends plagues, wars, and other affictions,  then it can be said that He sent Trump.

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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15674 on: March 17, 2019, 05:23:08 PM »
Could you cite some of Omar's writings or comments where she talks of "ethnically cleansing the Jews"?

Offline amw

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15675 on: March 17, 2019, 05:30:27 PM »
One of Ilhan Omar's first acts as a congresswoman was to vote yes on HB 21, which appropriated $3.3 billion in military aid to Israel of which $815 million was specifically earmarked for procurement of new weapons. You can find this in the congressional record. The bill passed by ~50 votes so it's not as though she couldn't have made a stand on principle if she wanted to. It would certainly be nice if she was genuinely an anti-Zionist but by the time anyone becomes an elected federal government official they seem to have already learned that the existence of Israel (the US's Jewish-themed summer camp/military forward operations base) is currently an important part of the US's Middle East power projection capabilities and therefore non-negotiable.

Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15676 on: March 17, 2019, 05:48:45 PM »
Could you cite some of Omar's writings or comments where she talks of "ethnically cleansing the Jews"?

Actually since being elected to Omar has been all over the place regarding Israel. But in 2012 she called Israel's defense of itself against Hamas "evil doings", and she supports BDS, a movement dedicated to turning Israel into a pariah state.  So I think it is fair to say she supports the Palestinian agenda. She has not talked about ethnic cleansing, and I did not say she did. But she supports those whose goal is ethnic cleansing.

And if you think I am wrong to characterize the Palestinian goal that way, then you need to learn more about the axtual goals of the Palestinian organizations. (Which in the case of Hamas is not merely ethnic cleansing, but actual genocide.)

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Offline SimonNZ

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15677 on: March 17, 2019, 06:18:23 PM »
Actually since being elected to Omar has been all over the place regarding Israel. But in 2012 she called Israel's defense of itself against Hamas "evil doings", and she supports BDS, a movement dedicated to turning Israel into a pariah state.  So I think it is fair to say she supports the Palestinian agenda. She has not talked about ethnic cleansing, and I did not say she did. But she supports those whose goal is ethnic cleansing.

And if you think I am wrong to characterize the Palestinian goal that way, then you need to learn more about the axtual goals of the Palestinian organizations. (Which in the case of Hamas is not merely ethnic cleansing, but actual genocide.)

On the one hand: the literature and debate on the Israel-Palestine situation is a Big Muddy I've not yet cared to wade into so I don't have any carefully considered position.

On the other hand: ive gleaned that a great many scholars from a wide field and from different backgrounds all seem to agree that the Palestinians have some legitimate grievances.


Shall we take a trip around the world together asking if supporting a certain cause in that country means supporting the most extreme or militant aspect of it?. We can include the US among the examples if you want.

Offline JBS

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15678 on: March 17, 2019, 06:49:41 PM »
On the one hand: the literature and debate on the Israel-Palestine situation is a Big Muddy I've not yet cared to wade into so I don't have any carefully considered position.

On the other hand: ive gleaned that a great many scholars from a wide field and from different backgrounds all seem to agree that the Palestinians have some legitimate grievances.


Shall we take a trip around the world together asking if supporting a certain cause in that country means supporting the most extreme or militant aspect of it?. We can include the US among the examples if you want.

In fact, it would perfectly reasonable for an impartial outsider to mutter "a curse on both your houses" and go off to find something better to do.

At the moment, all Palestinian institutions are controlled by those who are totally opposed to even the idea of Israel. It's hard to say what the actual Palestinian people think, since all dissent is crushed by the PA (meaning the current Abu Mazen regime) on the West Bank and even more brutally by Hamas in Gaza.  Perhaps it is ironic..but Palestinians who live in Israel proper are far more free than those who live under the rule of fellow Palestinians.  Both the PA and Hamas encourage and sometimes directly engage in violence against Israel, and maintain wiping out Israel is an inseperable part of Palestinian nationhood. When they talk about the Occupation, they mean not just the West Bank, but also Israel proper. To them, Tel Aviv and Eilat are occupied territories. The PA in dealing with Westerners tries to wiggle out of saying this directly, but they are not do discreet when talking to other Arabs. Hamas is much more open, and much more likely to initiate violence (which is why the Israeli treatment of the West Bank is different from its treatment of Gaza.)  But this maximalist stance means that discussion of legitimate grievances (and there are more than a few) is a waste of breath.

Israel, on the other side, has a government which is not rejectionist per se, but sees no reason to negotiate with the PA as long as the PA holds to its current stance. Internal Israeli politics has an important role here. Basically, Netanyahu has more reason to ally himself with the Israeli right than the center or the left. (Yes, there are a number of Israeli poltical groups who are more hawkish than he is, and some whose rejection of Palestinians is as extreme as the Palestinian rejection of Israel.)

What is needed is for both sides to have leadership who are actually willing to co-exist with each other. But especially on the Palestinian side this seems something that will not happen anytime soon.  And when people like Corbyn actually condone or even justify terrorism and this maximalist stance, they are making it even more unlikely.

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Re: Sound The TRUMPets! A Thread for Presidential Pondering 2016-2020(?)
« Reply #15679 on: March 17, 2019, 11:07:45 PM »
In fact, it would perfectly reasonable for an impartial outsider to mutter "a curse on both your houses" and go off to find something better to do.

At the moment, all Palestinian institutions are controlled by those who are totally opposed to even the idea of Israel. It's hard to say what the actual Palestinian people think, since all dissent is crushed by the PA (meaning the current Abu Mazen regime) on the West Bank and even more brutally by Hamas in Gaza.  Perhaps it is ironic..but Palestinians who live in Israel proper are far more free than those who live under the rule of fellow Palestinians.  Both the PA and Hamas encourage and sometimes directly engage in violence against Israel, and maintain wiping out Israel is an inseperable part of Palestinian nationhood. When they talk about the Occupation, they mean not just the West Bank, but also Israel proper. To them, Tel Aviv and Eilat are occupied territories. The PA in dealing with Westerners tries to wiggle out of saying this directly, but they are not do discreet when talking to other Arabs. Hamas is much more open, and much more likely to initiate violence (which is why the Israeli treatment of the West Bank is different from its treatment of Gaza.)  But this maximalist stance means that discussion of legitimate grievances (and there are more than a few) is a waste of breath.

Israel, on the other side, has a government which is not rejectionist per se, but sees no reason to negotiate with the PA as long as the PA holds to its current stance. Internal Israeli politics has an important role here. Basically, Netanyahu has more reason to ally himself with the Israeli right than the center or the left. (Yes, there are a number of Israeli poltical groups who are more hawkish than he is, and some whose rejection of Palestinians is as extreme as the Palestinian rejection of Israel.)

What is needed is for both sides to have leadership who are actually willing to co-exist with each other. But especially on the Palestinian side this seems something that will not happen anytime soon.  And when people like Corbyn actually condone or even justify terrorism and this maximalist stance, they are making it even more unlikely.
With all due respect, but I feel that you don't have an accurate idea of the 'reality on the ground'. I spent my last five Summers in both Israël and some Palestinian territories (Westbank only, but travelled along the Gaza strip and visited some settlements at the border) and this is not what I saw and learnt. The occupation is real, its effects are catastrophic, also for Israeli Palestinians (living as I do in the North, where they are a demographic but not political majority and where the explosion probably will start, somewhere in the near future), Westbank settlers are developing into extremist groups and 'official' politics is deadlocked, doesn't foresee any compromise, is still aimed at dismantling any effective Palestinian leadership. The 'rejection' politics is now predominantly a onesided Israeli affair; a tragedy and one that will cost dearly.  :-X
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