Author Topic: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.  (Read 2398 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nodogen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2017, 02:18:07 AM »
I dont know if it is because of her personality but each time I listen to Theresa May, I have the definite impression that deep down in her she does not believe in her own politics.  I always feel her expression contrived, uncertain.  Giving such an impression is not good as she wishes to lead negociations with the EU, or US, or Switzerland, or Turkey.

My feeling is her days at 10 Downing street are counted.

She's only still there cos no one else wants the gig currently. The Tories are publicly divided and Brexit looks a bigger shambles by the day. No Tory wants that job currently.

As to her politics. Who knows what they are. She is a schemer, a liar and incompetent. She's PM through luck and doing whatever she felt was needed. She quietly supported Remain prior to the referendum (cos she thought that was the winning side). Then, given the result, instantly became a Leaver. She has no fundamental principles, or at least any she is prepared to act upon if they get in the way of her scheming. Her lack of compassion, empathy and warmth are further reasons why her popularity has fallen off a cliff (probably the same cliff the selfish, incompetent Tories are prepared to take us over in the name of personal ambition and keeping in "power.")

So that's the UK's contribution to the special relationship. And then there's the vile abomination on the other side. As a minor detail, hopefully he won't be coming over to the UK. If he does he really will draw the largest crowd ever, period. But it won't be a welcome.

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10500
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2017, 03:09:29 AM »
The British are discovering, like all of us, that the postwar world as we once knew it is coming to an end....

The parallel with the 1930's is striking.... Not that we are going another rise of fascism or another world war (well let's hope so...perhaps a war).
But the similar unravelling of current global power structures and alliances, traditional political and social values is uncanning...  And in several quarters the hardright has taken power.

No UK, there is no special relationship with the US anymore....

And the US government no longer stands for traditional Western values anymore. I wouldn't even call its leadership halfway decent and it is definitely not reliable, which is the basis of any international alliance. So you might not even consider yourselves allies anymore...

So, who are the UK's allies....now it is burning its bridges with the European Union?  ::)

The UK has lost its course... In the bad times ahead, you'll need all the friends you can get. And it will not be the US.

Q
Sadly I totally agree with you.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline nodogen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2017, 03:49:01 AM »
Without commenting on the specifics of any of this, I would have thought that it was up to the Queen and no one else to decide whether, to what extent and for what reasons she might consider herself to be put in an "embarrassing situation" over the impending state visit either by Theresa May or by anyone else; the only questions might be whether Ms May announced that state visit without first consulting the Queen on it and whether she then insisted that it would not be cancelled having first discussed that with the Queen.

Liz has to shake hands with whoever is put in front of her (e.g. Mugabe). Likewise, at the state opening of Parliament: she reads out what "My Government" is going to do but it is just words given to her.

If Trump does visit (May won't lose face by cancelling it) I think it will be downgraded to a swift "business" visit, to try to avoid 1m people descending on Downing Street. Trump can sneak in the back door, tell her how brilliant he is then fuck off back to his golf course.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:50:51 AM by nodogen »

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10500
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2017, 08:20:45 AM »
Liz has to shake hands with whoever is put in front of her (e.g. Mugabe). Likewise, at the state opening of Parliament: she reads out what "My Government" is going to do but it is just words given to her.

If Trump does visit (May won't lose face by cancelling it) I think it will be downgraded to a swift "business" visit, to try to avoid 1m people descending on Downing Street. Trump can sneak in the back door, tell her how brilliant he is then fuck off back to his golf course.
It was a big mistake for the PM to arrange a full State visit - can't see that happening now. There would be too many demonstrations.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Turbot nouveaux

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 427
  • Location: UK
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2017, 01:01:56 PM »
It was a big mistake for the PM to arrange a full State visit - can't see that happening now. There would be too many demonstrations.


But she has a pair of pure tin political ears. She appears not to be able to accurately anticipate the consequences of anything. Come hell or high water, she'll have Trump's state visit. Because that'll smooth a trade deal, won't it. Won't it?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 02:25:11 AM by Turbot nouveaux »

Offline vandermolen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10500
  • Location: Rotherfield, Sussex, UK
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2017, 01:24:08 PM »

But she has a pair of pure tin political ears. She appears not to be able to accurately anticipate te consequences of anything. Come hell or high water, she'll have Trump's state visit. Because that'll smooth a trade deal, won't it. Won't it?
Interesting and you could be right - we will see!
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 15074
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2017, 01:34:01 PM »

But she has a pair of pure tin political ears. She appears not to be able to accurately anticipate te consequences of anything. Come hell or high water, she'll have Trump's state visit. Because that'll smooth a trade deal, won't it. Won't it?

That must be the trade deal that will allow the US to dump cheap food on the UK market?  ::)

I'm sure British farmers will be absolutely delighted...  ;)

Q
À chacun son goût.

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 15074
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 03:54:30 AM »
Trump dumps: the not so special relationship



Q
À chacun son goût.

Offline nodogen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2017, 09:02:41 AM »
Apart from the historical connection and common (ish) language, I'm not sure there is much of a "relationship", special or otherwise. There seems to be a real cultural chasm between the two countries. The fact that Trump can get wide support in one of the countries is symptomatic of this, I believe. Each day, looking at the press I regularly see examples of this cultural divide. Just a couple at random, today:

A tweet from Trump in support of a candidate:

"Doug Jones is Pro-Abortion, weak on Crime, Military and Illegal Immigration, Bad for Gun Owners and Veterans and against the WALL. Jones is a Pelosi/Schumer Puppet. Roy Moore will always vote with us. VOTE ROY MOORE!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42322293

(oh dear, I've just read "10 things Roy Moore believes." I wish I hadn't)

and on a personal "street-level" experience:

"I had also been reliably informed, and indeed had formed the impression myself, that LA represented the most liberal corner of North America and if I was going to be welcomed anywhere it would be there. I was involved in a racial incident within the first 24 hours of my arrival." ...continues...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/12/how-did-i-handle-casual-racism-in-los-angeles-awkwardly

Whether or not these two things seem "ok" or defensible to you, probably shows which side of the "special relationship" you are on.












« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 09:07:10 AM by nodogen »

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2017, 06:06:34 PM »
Apart from the historical connection and common (ish) language, I'm not sure there is much of a "relationship", special or otherwise. There seems to be a real cultural chasm between the two countries. The fact that Trump can get wide support in one of the countries is symptomatic of this, I believe. Each day, looking at the press I regularly see examples of this cultural divide. Just a couple at random, today:

A tweet from Trump in support of a candidate:

"Doug Jones is Pro-Abortion, weak on Crime, Military and Illegal Immigration, Bad for Gun Owners and Veterans and against the WALL. Jones is a Pelosi/Schumer Puppet. Roy Moore will always vote with us. VOTE ROY MOORE!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42322293

(oh dear, I've just read "10 things Roy Moore believes." I wish I hadn't)

and on a personal "street-level" experience:

"I had also been reliably informed, and indeed had formed the impression myself, that LA represented the most liberal corner of North America and if I was going to be welcomed anywhere it would be there. I was involved in a racial incident within the first 24 hours of my arrival." ...continues...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/12/how-did-i-handle-casual-racism-in-los-angeles-awkwardly

Whether or not these two things seem "ok" or defensible to you, probably shows which side of the "special relationship" you are on.

Observation 1
The same sort of people who support Trump here are the same sort who support Jacob Reese-Moog (I'm too lazy to look up his actual name) there.   And remember only about one-third of the electorate actually support him.
Observation 2
LA is a big city, with plenty of conservative voters in the outlying areas, and California actually has plenty of conservative voters despite progressive dominance, especially in the northern half of the state.  San Francisco (home turf of Nancy Pelosi and former turf of Colin Kaepernick) is much more liberal, in part because it has a much higher percentage of gays than most cities (or at least, used to).
Observation 3
Until the current generation, immigrants/visitors from South Central Asia were not terribly common, and it's quite possible many Americans have interacted with South Asians only as people on the other end of a call to a customer service center in Bangalore or Lahore, and not in the flesh

Offline nodogen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2017, 12:29:42 AM »
I didn't realise "South Central Asians" were such a rarity in the US!

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2017, 06:32:47 PM »
I didn't realise "South Central Asians" were such a rarity in the US!

Compared to East Asians--that is, China, Korea, Japan--and Southeast Asians--that is, Thailand, Burma, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Malayasia, Indonesia and the Philippines--yes.  Which is logical. If you live in the former Raj, you will probably focus on the UK in preference to the US.  In fact, a considerable number of Hindus in the US are actually immigrants from Trinidad and other parts of the former British West Indies, descendants of those who immigrated out of India to the BWI a century or more ago.

Is there, btw, a better term to refer to those who come from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka?

Offline nodogen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2017, 01:12:32 AM »

Is there, btw, a better term to refer to those who come from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka?

Looking at Wiki confirms what you made me realise, the terms vary depending on where you live. 🧐

In the UK I think I may be typical (but I could be wrong!). "Asian" would be taken to mean the region you ask about (India etc). It is also common to use the term "Indian" to mean people from that whole region.

For East Asia - we might call the region "the Far East", but the term "Far Eastern" (!) is not used in reference to the people of those countries.

Generally, in common speech we don't use any identifiers souch as East, South etc, unless the context of the conversation requires.

« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:29:03 AM by nodogen »

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 15074
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2018, 05:18:49 AM »
Plenty of threads to post this:
(This one, the Royal wedding thread, the Brexit thread and the Trump thread)

Trump may deny the UK a Brexit trade deal if he’s snubbed from Prince Harry’s wedding

A "friend" that considers to be your master and expects subservience.
Now, the Anglo-American relationship was, after the British lost their empire, never on equal footing... But this is taking it to another level altogether... One would almost forget that the US is quickly loosing clout on the international stage itself....

Note the alleged view of Trump of the British monarch.... 8)

Q


À chacun son goût.

Spineur

  • Guest
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2018, 05:54:56 AM »
... But this is taking it to another level altogether... One would almost forget that the US is quickly loosing clout on the international stage itself....

Note the alleged view of Trump of the British monarch.... 8)

Q
But remember that Trump is a genius of
- imposture ?
- provocation ?
- megalomania ?
- unreason ?

« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 06:17:30 AM by Que »

Offline bwv 1080

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2018, 06:08:28 AM »
I didn't realise "South Central Asians" were such a rarity in the US!

They are not - about 1% of the population vs Chinese Americans about 1.5%. 
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum

Offline nodogen

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 1102
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2018, 09:27:39 AM »
Plenty of threads to post this:
(This one, the Royal wedding thread, the Brexit thread and the Trump thread)

Trump may deny the UK a Brexit trade deal if he’s snubbed from Prince Harry’s wedding

A "friend" that considers to be your master and expects subservience.
Now, the Anglo-American relationship was, after the British lost their empire, never on equal footing... But this is taking it to another level altogether... One would almost forget that the US is quickly loosing clout on the international stage itself....

Note the alleged view of Trump of the British monarch.... 8)

Q

Just when you think it can't get any worse! What a perfect storm; royalty, poltics and the Orange man-child.

May's idiotic visit invitation is looking set for a February date. Which will it be - brief, private and brilliantly successful, or full, public, massive protests and brilliantly successful?

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 15074
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2018, 10:10:40 AM »
Just when you think it can't get any worse! What a perfect storm; royalty, poltics and the Orange man-child.

May's idiotic visit invitation is looking set for a February date. Which will it be - brief, private and brilliantly successful, or full, public, massive protests and brilliantly successful?

Poor prince Harry.... I would resist inviting Trump at any cost....

Turning it into a private wedding for close friends & family and perhaps foreign royalty might be the best option...

Q
À chacun son goût.

kishnevi

  • Guest
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2018, 10:35:58 AM »
Plenty of threads to post this:
(This one, the Royal wedding thread, the Brexit thread and the Trump thread)

Trump may deny the UK a Brexit trade deal if he’s snubbed from Prince Harry’s wedding

A "friend" that considers to be your master and expects subservience.
Now, the Anglo-American relationship was, after the British lost their empire, never on equal footing... But this is taking it to another level altogether... One would almost forget that the US is quickly loosing clout on the international stage itself....

Note the alleged view of Trump of the British monarch.... 8)

Q

While it's believable, the source is Wolff's speculation.  I suggest taking it with more than a few grains of salt.

Offline Que

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 15074
  • "One HIP dude"
  • Location: The Hague, Netherlands
  • Currently Listening to:
    Still nuts about harpsichord music and exploring Early Music.
Re: Anglo-American 'Special Relationship'.
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2018, 11:07:41 AM »
While it's believable, the source is Wolff's speculation.  I suggest taking it with more than a few grains of salt.

True comment on the source...  But as you say - it is entirely plausible, even likely IMO.

Q
À chacun son goût.