Author Topic: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread  (Read 3123 times)

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Thatfabulousalien

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Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« on: March 10, 2017, 09:16:10 PM »
Nothing much to say here, bye  :)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 03:23:53 AM by opaquer »

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2017, 10:41:46 PM »
My own philosophy is pretty simple: cut out all of the unnecessary things in your life and only then can you find your true happiness.
“I really would like to go to Marmorkirken. It was there that I heard music for the first time, and that experience is like a heavenly vision for me.” - Rued Langgaard

Offline david johnson

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 01:33:08 AM »
For myself, I have been, and will probably stay, in a "primitive" style of Christianity.  Autonomous congregations, a cappella singing, emphasis on helping others, and worship directed toward the Lord.  All that does not mean rejection of other types of churches.  I also think that there are a variety of philosophies the believer can employ within his or her life that are certainly not in conflict with an active Christianity.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 04:39:45 AM »
By birth and personal conviction based on study, I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I was baptized in the Romanian Orthodox Church. In my late teens / early twenties I considered converting to Roman Catholicism but in time I realized that theologically Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are quite similar and, moreover, that when it comes to organized religion, the Romanian Orthodox Church might not have all the virtues of the Roman Catholic Church but certainly has very few of its vices --- so eventually I decided to stay in the religion of my fathers and forefathers. I never ever regretted it.

I also think that there are a variety of philosophies the believer can employ within his or her life that are certainly not in conflict with an active Christianity.

+ 1.
Music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music.. - Mozart

Offline NikF

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 04:54:31 AM »





Any strength, virtue or peace I might have is mostly down to what is contained in these (and other similar) books. They've even contributed to my work and to my leisure (boxing) and in the acceptance required when finding or losing love within relationships.
While I don't quite jump out of bed every morning and throw the curtains back in a Howard Keel 'Oh what a beautiful mornin'!' manner, I live every day as full as possible with a lust for life.

And to be a person radiating that.


A (secondary) result of this is that people will be hugely attracted to you. But there will always be those who loathe and despise you for it.

"You overestimate my power of attraction," he told her. "No, I don't," she replied sharply, "and neither do you".

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 04:58:44 AM »
But if you think it possible to achieve a sense of true happiness or satisfaction with [your] existence, are you really a cynical person by nature?
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 05:29:38 AM »

     I'll only point out what's clear to me, that discussion of what's called "philosophical beliefs" has precious little to do with philosophy. It appears here linked to therapeutic systems, to be discussed in the dreaded supportive environment.
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Offline Jo498

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 08:18:37 AM »
There is a book by U of Chicago philosopher Martha Nussbaum on hellenistic philosophy that is titled "The Therapy of Desire".
(There is a more famous book by some guy Boethius titled "The consolation of philosophy".)

That philosophy can also be some kind of "therapy" (besides a therapy for ignorance) is not a late 20th century idea, although the meanings of both words might have changed somewhat. For several (often good) reasons (and one might be the therapeutic misuse of watered down philosophy) modern academic philosophy is very far from being connected to a way of life, or a good life. But this connection was obvious for all antiquity and also for the religious philosophy of the middle ages, so I do not see a general problem in reviving this tradition. Of course one has to take care not to slip into cheap esotericism.
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
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The morning breeze like a bugle blew
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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 08:48:45 AM »

    It took a long time for philosophers to get straight what they do, that they first have to ground what they do in rules for thinking systems or the results will be corrupted by pervasive "true by belief" processes. I see these tendencies not as conflicting but mutually poisonous.
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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2017, 01:05:31 PM »
I am generally very open minded in such matters and I do not believe that any one religion has unique access to God. I am not Religious but believe that there is a spiritual side to our existence. I'm of Jewish origin but 'married out' as did my brother who converted to Christianity. My wife goes to church regularly and I go with her sometimes. I had a very interesting discussion with a rabbi on the phone recently after I heard him talk on the BBC and who recognised people like me, in a kind of No-Man's Land for having married out but still identified with their Jewish roots. I was rubbish at learning Hebrew and had to learn my barmitzvah passage by using English phonetics.  ::)
If anything I feel closest to Taoism in my outlook on life.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2017, 05:02:07 PM »
Who knows, but maybe it's trying to overcome the cynicism in continuing to improve (like we all lack) as a human being?
If you lose the cynicism, then all hope is lost for you.  >:D
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Offline aleazk

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2017, 06:42:49 PM »
Lol... remember that NZ bus driver-wild pig hunter-half maori half scotish i told you before?...

Well, he also ranted about people that read books all day, university students that don't know anything about life, they don't even know what a mountain is in peson; i will tell you i have never read a single book in my life, but i remember every single story my grandparents told me, blah, blah, blah....

And i said "yeah, true".... but i was sincere because the man had such a passion that you sided with him...

Lol.... but then he asked me "and what do you do?"

Me in a very serene way as if nothing of the above happened: "i'm a mathematical physicist at the university and currently doing a book"

 :laugh:
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 06:44:51 PM by aleazk »

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2017, 06:48:28 PM »
Something strange happened when I was on the bus a few days ago:

There was a homeless man who was just standing up on the bus, then he started preaching or lecturing everyone.
Everyone was talking (like usual in public), then he started talking and it went quiet.
He said stuff I've already heard about (selfishness, everyone is so busy, nobody knows what they're doing in life, blah blah) in a profound tone but he was saying it patronizingly but it was a surreal moment because nobody knew weather to tell him to shut up or not.

Among other things, in this 5-10 minutes, he ranted about University Students, office workers, woman working jobs, etc.

Yeah, I still don't know what to make of it  :-[

I would have just put my headphones on and tuned him out.
“I really would like to go to Marmorkirken. It was there that I heard music for the first time, and that experience is like a heavenly vision for me.” - Rued Langgaard

Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2017, 02:13:38 AM »
I have a really hard time with organized religion, having been burnt badly by them time and again. It took a while to figure out what the technique is. They dismantle your defenses because clergy would not do such a thing like lie or cheat. This is how child abuse is carried out. 12 years ago I was physically attacked by a nun in what is supposed to be a prestigious "peace music school". This was a week after my father passed away, so one could imagine what a state I was in to begin with. I went to the Big Boss thinking he would do something. Oh yeah, he did alright, I was fired at the end of term.

One of the biggest regrets of my life was not to make a police report, for this place would not exist anymore and continue to troll funds over blatant lies. I cannot stand the money grubbing of the church in a place where it is supposed to be the repository of Christendom. Almost every large religious organization is infested with money greed. Someday I should really write a book, it is so shocking.

However, when speaking out my objections to an Anglican minister about 30 years ago, he told me that people without religion would be worse. Ay, caramba! I realized how true that was! I was an arch rebel after leaving Catholic school but got into worse messes that would have even been imaginable under some protection of the moral umbrella of the church.

I learned later that you can beat them at their own game and even take the higher moral ground. This they don't expect. It has been tried by some clergy over the millennia who were either killed outright or burned at the stake.

Getting back to the money issue, I often wondered if certain priests and ministers were lying, whether they really believed what they were preaching. One minister actually made over a million dollars over 20 years from donations to his "mission". He didn't have money however to pay the Muslim gardener a proper wage. Wow, that is GREAT witness on how Christians should advertise their faith. Instead these people are particularly moved by the con artist type who pretends to be converted, shouts "glory, halleluiah" so they write home to get more money!!!

It becomes a more a business but across the board in any serious religion worldly goods are to eschewed because they are definitely corrupting. There are some who take this injunction seriously, cash in their assets, give to charity and depend on divine assistance. I have not met with too many of the real deal variety but it is only through such people that spiritual things do happen with those from any religion. I have a hard time with the concept of conversion because some are very happy in what spiritual context they happen to be in.  Conversion is something personal and occurs from within. It cannot be put on like a dress or suit of clothes. Also the process cannot be speeded up. A person has to be ready to accept a message, otherwise it is gibberish.

One objection I have for the keeping to a ritual sort of practice as with the Catholics, many times it doesn't penetrate. it can stay superficial for years, even one's whole life. I recently took up reading Emerson and this time his essays made sense. He actually left preaching because of subjective reasons. If I understand him correctly, the "I" has to be present to understand or relate to the "you". This kind of links up with my being more attracted to Buddhism, of which I have been getting the sayings of the Buddha in my inbox for years. At first, I also didn't get it, but there are clues along the way if one has an open mind and has the desire to improve.

I still identify as a Catholic because I think the Church is a necessary bulwark in the ongoing, serious cultural wars even if some are trying to erode it from within. There is a growing group of laity who do not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, who would like to keep Christianity but not let it be corrupted into a caricature of itself by the very shepherds who are supposed to lead it.
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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2017, 06:06:21 AM »


For several (often good) reasons (and one might be the therapeutic misuse of watered down philosophy) modern academic philosophy is very far from being connected to a way of life, or a good life. But this connection was obvious for all antiquity and also for the religious philosophy of the middle ages, so I do not see a general problem in reviving this tradition. Of course one has to take care not to slip into cheap esotericism.

     My understanding of the history of philosophy goes like this, philosophy started examining everything that concerned people and when it came to solid conclusions a discipline was founded.

     One reason I value the modern view of philosophy is that it's the best tool to examine the cults of belief that plague the world. I couldn't do without the kind of analysis of concepts and language used to describe them that philosophy provides.

     An example would be "cheap esotericism", which we all should avoid for good philosophical reasons, so long as we don't grant expensive esotericism a free pass.

     That's it, right there. You analyze a concept by the language used to find buried assumptions that in the light of day dissolve into.....something metaphorical. The assumption that there is good and bad esotericism is unmoored by any stable means of distinguishing them except by belief, and belief in this case is of a term, since nothing to which the term refers can be defined by reference to an observable on account of it's esoteric.

     We need the tools to combat the kind of nonsense I describe and all the other kinds. When all the subdisciplines branched off of the main body of philosophy it was left with one that won't branch, ever, and that's the analysis of thought itself. While others are thinking about things, philosophers think about how to think about things.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 06:09:39 AM by drogulus »
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2017, 07:11:53 AM »
Something strange happened when I was on the bus a few days ago:

There was a homeless man who was just standing up on the bus, then he started preaching or lecturing everyone.
Everyone was talking (like usual in public), then he started talking and it went quiet.
He said stuff I've already heard about (selfishness, everyone is so busy, nobody knows what they're doing in life, blah blah) in a profound tone but he was saying it patronizingly but it was a surreal moment because nobody knew weather to tell him to shut up or not.

Among other things, in this 5-10 minutes, he ranted about University Students, office workers, woman working jobs, etc.

Yeah, I still don't know what to make of it  :-[

In New York proper etiquette is to say: "I'll give you $5 if you shut the fuck up right now."  ;)

Seriously though, I had an encounter with subway proselytizing on the A train in Manhattan a few years ago. A team of Jesus enthusiasts entered the packed car by different doors. The one in the front would deliver some piece of the Lord's wisdom and then his partner would raise a lame objection so that Mouth One (I couldn't see either of them) could lead him to salvation by the Socratic method. What they hadn't counted on was others getting into the act. So when Mouth One said something like: "Only by accepting Jesus as your personal savior will you get into the kingdom of heaven," I shouted in a louder voice: "Will heaven be filled with jerks like you?" A couple of young Irish tourists, perhaps figuring this sort of repartee was normal, responded to the next biblical platitude with: "We don't want to listen to this shyte." It got louder and funnier from there with at least four people heaping ridicule upon the preachers. After they had disembarked and the train had cleared out and gotten quieter, a little old lady who had been sitting near where I was standing asked me: "So are you one of them too?"   

In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena. I was brainwashed into Catholicism at a young age but by 14 had become a non-believer. I think the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imaginations of the mystics, to whom I am wont to say, in the words of the late FZ: "Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?"
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 07:29:27 AM by BasilValentine »

Offline NikF

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2017, 07:32:21 AM »
In New York proper etiquette is to say: "I'll give you $5 if you shut the fuck up right now."  ;)

Seriously though, I had an encounter with subway proselytizing on the A train in Manhattan a few years ago. A team of Jesus enthusiasts entered the packed car by different doors. The one in the front would deliver some piece of the Lord's wisdom and then his partner would raise a lame objection so that Mouth One (I couldn't see either of them) could lead him to salvation by the Socratic method. What they hadn't counted on was others getting into the act. So when Mouth One said something like: "Only by accepting Jesus as your personal savior will you get into the kingdom of heaven," I shouted in a louder voice: "Will heaven be filled with jerks like you?" A couple of young Irish tourists, perhaps figuring this sort of repartee was normal, responded to the next biblical platitude with: "We don't want to listen to this shyte." It got louder and funnier from there with at least four people heaping ridicule upon the preachers. After they had disembarked and the train had cleared out and gotten quieter, a little old lady who had been sitting near where I was standing asked me: "So are you one of them too?"   

In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena. I was brainwashed into Catholicism at a young age but by 14 had become a non-believer. I think the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imaginations of the mystics, to whom I am wont to say, in the words of the late FZ: "Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?"

I can hear the accent.  :laugh:
"You overestimate my power of attraction," he told her. "No, I don't," she replied sharply, "and neither do you".

Spineur

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2017, 08:12:18 AM »
In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena.
I do not either, however as a scientist, I will admit that not all of them have been properly debunked.  I am particularly interested in the Fatima appartion, which was eventually seen by tens of thousands.  I have visited the shrine last year, and 2017 is the 100th anniversary.  The pope will be there.  The real bad aspect of it, is the Temple merchants are in full swing right now as a quick internet search will convince you.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 08:14:52 AM by Spineur »

kishnevi

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2017, 10:20:28 AM »


In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena. I was brainwashed into Catholicism at a young age but by 14 had become a non-believer. I think the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imaginations of the mystics, to whom I am wont to say, in the words of the late FZ: "Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?"

Actually, the mystics will tell you that the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imagination of any human. That is the whole point: that the Absolutely Real is beyond the capacity of any of us to understand. Western Religion used God as a shorthand term. But if you read deeply into the Jewish and Islamic  mystics, you find passages which could be written by a Vedanta guru or Vajrayana lama.  Even obstensibly nonmystical Orthodox writers on seemingly mundane topics can enunciate the fact that only God truly exists, and everything else is nullified in comparison to Him. (I am Jewish, to clarify.). The great error of Christianity is to imagine that it is possible to exist independently​ of God.

Of course that has not kept popular everyday religion of all kinds, Judaism included,into becoming a faith were God is a universal Father who can be rather arbitrary in who gets candy and who gets cod liver oil.

kishnevi

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2017, 10:27:48 AM »
I do not either, however as a scientist, I will admit that not all of them have been properly debunked.  I am particularly interested in the Fatima appartion, which was eventually seen by tens of thousands.  I have visited the shrine last year, and 2017 is the 100th anniversary.  The pope will be there.  The real bad aspect of it, is the Temple merchants are in full swing right now as a quick internet search will convince you.

As I understand it, the big miracle of Fatima revolved around a group of dancing suns.  It would seem to me that optical effects from the atmosphere could explain most of it, and the psychology of crowds explain the rest.

The most convincing visions are often the least documented and most private.   One reason I think Mohammed was a true visionary (which a lot of people refuse to admit) was his initial reaction: he thought he was going insane