Author Topic: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread  (Read 2069 times)

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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2017, 07:11:53 AM »
Something strange happened when I was on the bus a few days ago:

There was a homeless man who was just standing up on the bus, then he started preaching or lecturing everyone.
Everyone was talking (like usual in public), then he started talking and it went quiet.
He said stuff I've already heard about (selfishness, everyone is so busy, nobody knows what they're doing in life, blah blah) in a profound tone but he was saying it patronizingly but it was a surreal moment because nobody knew weather to tell him to shut up or not.

Among other things, in this 5-10 minutes, he ranted about University Students, office workers, woman working jobs, etc.

Yeah, I still don't know what to make of it  :-[

In New York proper etiquette is to say: "I'll give you $5 if you shut the fuck up right now."  ;)

Seriously though, I had an encounter with subway proselytizing on the A train in Manhattan a few years ago. A team of Jesus enthusiasts entered the packed car by different doors. The one in the front would deliver some piece of the Lord's wisdom and then his partner would raise a lame objection so that Mouth One (I couldn't see either of them) could lead him to salvation by the Socratic method. What they hadn't counted on was others getting into the act. So when Mouth One said something like: "Only by accepting Jesus as your personal savior will you get into the kingdom of heaven," I shouted in a louder voice: "Will heaven be filled with jerks like you?" A couple of young Irish tourists, perhaps figuring this sort of repartee was normal, responded to the next biblical platitude with: "We don't want to listen to this shyte." It got louder and funnier from there with at least four people heaping ridicule upon the preachers. After they had disembarked and the train had cleared out and gotten quieter, a little old lady who had been sitting near where I was standing asked me: "So are you one of them too?"   

In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena. I was brainwashed into Catholicism at a young age but by 14 had become a non-believer. I think the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imaginations of the mystics, to whom I am wont to say, in the words of the late FZ: "Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?"
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 07:29:27 AM by BasilValentine »

Offline NikF

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2017, 07:32:21 AM »
In New York proper etiquette is to say: "I'll give you $5 if you shut the fuck up right now."  ;)

Seriously though, I had an encounter with subway proselytizing on the A train in Manhattan a few years ago. A team of Jesus enthusiasts entered the packed car by different doors. The one in the front would deliver some piece of the Lord's wisdom and then his partner would raise a lame objection so that Mouth One (I couldn't see either of them) could lead him to salvation by the Socratic method. What they hadn't counted on was others getting into the act. So when Mouth One said something like: "Only by accepting Jesus as your personal savior will you get into the kingdom of heaven," I shouted in a louder voice: "Will heaven be filled with jerks like you?" A couple of young Irish tourists, perhaps figuring this sort of repartee was normal, responded to the next biblical platitude with: "We don't want to listen to this shyte." It got louder and funnier from there with at least four people heaping ridicule upon the preachers. After they had disembarked and the train had cleared out and gotten quieter, a little old lady who had been sitting near where I was standing asked me: "So are you one of them too?"   

In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena. I was brainwashed into Catholicism at a young age but by 14 had become a non-believer. I think the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imaginations of the mystics, to whom I am wont to say, in the words of the late FZ: "Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?"

I can hear the accent.  :laugh:
What doesn't kill you always makes you stronger - unless you were too weak to begin with, of course. Fact.

Offline Spineur

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2017, 08:12:18 AM »
In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena.
I do not either, however as a scientist, I will admit that not all of them have been properly debunked.  I am particularly interested in the Fatima appartion, which was eventually seen by tens of thousands.  I have visited the shrine last year, and 2017 is the 100th anniversary.  The pope will be there.  The real bad aspect of it, is the Temple merchants are in full swing right now as a quick internet search will convince you.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 08:14:52 AM by Spineur »
A woman voice glides like the wind
Of black, of damp, of night
And all it touches in this flight
Suddenly is over.

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Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2017, 10:20:28 AM »


In case you haven't guessed, I don't believe in gods, apparitions or supernatural phenomena. I was brainwashed into Catholicism at a young age but by 14 had become a non-believer. I think the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imaginations of the mystics, to whom I am wont to say, in the words of the late FZ: "Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?"

Actually, the mystics will tell you that the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imagination of any human. That is the whole point: that the Absolutely Real is beyond the capacity of any of us to understand. Western Religion used God as a shorthand term. But if you read deeply into the Jewish and Islamic  mystics, you find passages which could be written by a Vedanta guru or Vajrayana lama.  Even obstensibly nonmystical Orthodox writers on seemingly mundane topics can enunciate the fact that only God truly exists, and everything else is nullified in comparison to Him. (I am Jewish, to clarify.). The great error of Christianity is to imagine that it is possible to exist independently​ of God.

Of course that has not kept popular everyday religion of all kinds, Judaism included,into becoming a faith were God is a universal Father who can be rather arbitrary in who gets candy and who gets cod liver oil.

Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2017, 10:27:48 AM »
I do not either, however as a scientist, I will admit that not all of them have been properly debunked.  I am particularly interested in the Fatima appartion, which was eventually seen by tens of thousands.  I have visited the shrine last year, and 2017 is the 100th anniversary.  The pope will be there.  The real bad aspect of it, is the Temple merchants are in full swing right now as a quick internet search will convince you.

As I understand it, the big miracle of Fatima revolved around a group of dancing suns.  It would seem to me that optical effects from the atmosphere could explain most of it, and the psychology of crowds explain the rest.

The most convincing visions are often the least documented and most private.   One reason I think Mohammed was a true visionary (which a lot of people refuse to admit) was his initial reaction: he thought he was going insane

Online Jo498

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2017, 10:50:29 AM »
The great error of Christianity is to imagine that it is possible to exist independently​ of God.
This not Christian teaching. There are christian mystics as well (and in my impression all mystic teachings seem to converge to something rather similar, besides the Abrahamitic religions, Vedanta and Buddhism (at least some schools of the last two) this also includes pagan Neoplatonism and probably more) and even non-mystic christians hold of course that nothing is independent of God as He keeps everything in existence.
Although admittedly the material universe and humans are probably conceived as more independent in traditional Christianity than in some other traditions. Roughly speaking, God delegates some of his power of creation to the creatures so they can partake actively, e.g. in making more creatures.
(This relative independence could be one reason why only the Christian tradition developed modern natural science: Nature can be studied independently but it is understandable because it was created by a rational God.)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
I knew the night had gone.
The morning breeze like a bugle blew
Against the drums of dawn.
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2017, 11:04:55 AM »
Actually, the mystics will tell you that the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imagination of any human.

My statement, that the universe has mysteries beyond the imagination of mystics, has been objectively established: Their myths and and speculations have been superseded by observations and discoveries that were, in fact, far beyond the mystics' imaginations. What you claim the mystics tell us, on the other hand, is internally fallacious, self-refuting bullshit, since supporting it would require stating the unimaginable.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2017, 11:09:34 AM »
Who really cares? Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs. Anyone who tries to refute or disagree with someone else is barking up the wrong tree IMHO. You guys really need to give it a rest. I don’t think ThatFabulousAlien meant for this thread to turn into this kind of argumentative tug-of-war.
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Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2017, 11:19:34 AM »
My statement, that the universe has mysteries beyond the imagination of mystics, has been objectively established: Their myths and and speculations have been superseded by observations and discoveries that were, in fact, far beyond the mystics' imaginations. What you claim the mystics tell us, on the other hand, is internally fallacious, self-refuting bullshit, since supporting it would require stating the unimaginable.

Ahem.
I pointed out the fact that "mystics" find reality to be beyond anyone's imagination, including their own. Your original statement is a subset of mine. So if my statement is fallacious self refuting...so is yours.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2017, 11:25:28 AM »
Not a thread to argue about these subjects

It took only two pages to break the rule.
Regele şi Patria!

Offline opaquer

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2017, 11:39:34 AM »
ThatFabulousAlien meant for this thread to turn into this kind of argumentative tug-of-war.

Exactly, this is why I was reluctant to create this thread as I stated in the OP.
There are plenty of other forums that you can have religious debates, I'm not interested in that.
I'm not a religious person myself and I don't believe in dogma. I am interested in many ideas, concepts and perspectives offered by some religions, philosophers, occultists and mystics though.

This thread was finally created when I was in a very "enlightened" mood, I think the world needs more love and understanding when it comes down to it. Not a relationship or sexual kind of love but a love that recognises our imperfections and shows compassion, understanding and honesty without expecting anything.

I'm not here to preach, I hate preachers. I want to hear your views and philosophies... without bickering

Offline NikF

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2017, 11:44:31 AM »
"I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill. I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my fellow human or hate him, without my decision to choose that opinion. The harm is done in my response to their actions, not in their actions."

e: years and years ago I used to read that every morning before I'd go out for my run. Initially I found what it contains to be a little difficult to put into practice. But as with most things in life it was simply a case of allowing time and patience to do their work and then I could begin to reap the benefits.

Quote

Much good nutrition, there. But in one regard, at least, I think it may be a shade naïf. Ingratitude, violence, treachery, envy, uncharity are at times the work or character of people who do, in fact, know good from ill.


I'm not very good at explaining myself. So apologies beforehand if the following isn't very clear or perhaps even seems condescending.

..."people who do, in fact, know good from ill."

That's their nature. And I can't do anything about that. I can only choose how I react to what they do.

Who a person is and what they believe and how they act upon it is the result of so many variables throughout their life. A part of that could be to lie, steal, mislead, manipulate, abuse etc. At some point in their life they found they could do any of these things and live peacefully with themselves after the fact. That's their nature.

I can steal my neighbour's bandwidth. I know that he won't be physically or emotionally hurt by this, that he probably won't even notice and so I won't get caught. But because I know the difference between real good and ill it means I won't steal his bandwidth because to steal it isn't my nature.
If my neighbour goes ahead and steals my bandwidth it's wrong, but because he's ignorant of real good and ill he can live with the theft. That's his nature. I can't do anything about that other to choose how I react -
I can speak to him, calmy explaining that his act is wrong. That's the good thing to do.
I can beat him until he screams, calmly explaining that his act is wrong. That's the ill/wrong thing to do.

At this point during similar discussions (on other message boards) I'm often asked the same old questions, usually by people who already know my answer yet choose to go ahead anyway... My reply is that no, this does not mean I approve of psychopaths, genocide, child or animal abuse, slavery, polluting the seas, insurance salesmen etc.

I'm responsible for how I react. Or more exactly, I'm responsible for who I am, how I behave, how I treat others, and how I live my life. No excuses. I'd like to add this quote by Viktor Frankl which I feel sums it up far better than I ever could.
“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”

« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 01:45:42 PM by NikF »
What doesn't kill you always makes you stronger - unless you were too weak to begin with, of course. Fact.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2017, 12:08:44 PM »
As I understand it, the big miracle of Fatima revolved around a group of dancing suns.  It would seem to me that optical effects from the atmosphere could explain most of it, and the psychology of crowds explain the rest.

The most convincing visions are often the least documented and most private.   One reason I think Mohammed was a true visionary (which a lot of people refuse to admit) was his initial reaction: he thought he was going insane

Most interesting. Thanks for your posts.

"I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill. I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my fellow human or hate him, without my decision to choose that opinion. The harm is done in my response to their actions, not in their actions."

Much good nutrition, there. But in one regard, at least, I think it may be a shade naïf. Ingratitude, violence, treachery, envy, uncharity are at times the work or character of people who do, in fact, know good from ill.


I want to thank everyone, really, because it's a topic on which passions will perforce run warm, but there has been reasonable decorum.
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2017, 12:36:09 PM »
Exactly, this is why I was reluctant to create this thread as I stated in the OP.
There are plenty of other forums that you can have religious debates, I'm not interested in that.
I'm not a religious person myself and I don't believe in dogma. I am interested in many ideas, concepts and perspectives offered by some religions, philosophers, occultists and mystics though.

This thread was finally created when I was in a very "enlightened" mood, I think the world needs more love and understanding when it comes down to it. Not a relationship or sexual kind of love but a love that recognises our imperfections and shows compassion, understanding and honesty without expecting anything.

I'm not here to preach, I hate preachers. I want to hear your views and philosophies... without bickering

You are right. My apologies. Proceed …

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2017, 12:38:37 PM »
My beliefs can be summed up this way: I believe there’s a divine entity that created everything. I have absolutely zero use for religion, but I loathe religious zealots who try to tell me otherwise. The end.
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Offline Jeffrey Smith

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2017, 01:06:15 PM »
You are right. My apologies. Proceed …

And mine as well.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2017, 06:43:48 AM »
A recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute found: “A majority (53%) of Americans oppose allowing businesses that provide wedding services, such as catering, flowers, and wedding cakes, to refuse services to same-sex couples, compared to about four in ten (41%) who say they would support allowing these wedding-based businesses to refuse services to same-sex couples for religious reasons.” However, “White Protestants are unique to the extent they believe wedding-based businesses should be allowed to refuse serving same-sex couples. Nearly two-thirds (65%) of white evangelical Protestants and nearly half (49%) of white mainline Protestants believe businesses that provide wedding services should be allowed to refuse services to same-sex couples.” One wonders whether this isn’t so much about religion but rather another battle line in the culture wars, where Christian conservatives don’t want liberal elites telling them what to do.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline drogulus

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2017, 08:27:31 AM »
It took only two pages to break the rule.

     There is no philosophy without argument. Its history is composed of the arguments philosophers have made. It's what they do, and what they are remembered for.

     A.J. Ayer, an important 20th century philosopher, wrote a book with the title The Meaning Of Life.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2017, 11:27:51 PM »
A recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute found: “A majority (53%) of Americans oppose allowing businesses that provide wedding services, such as catering, flowers, and wedding cakes, to refuse services to same-sex couples, compared to about four in ten (41%) who say they would support allowing these wedding-based businesses to refuse services to same-sex couples for religious reasons.” However, “White Protestants are unique to the extent they believe wedding-based businesses should be allowed to refuse serving same-sex couples. Nearly two-thirds (65%) of white evangelical Protestants and nearly half (49%) of white mainline Protestants believe businesses that provide wedding services should be allowed to refuse services to same-sex couples.” One wonders whether this isn’t so much about religion but rather another battle line in the culture wars, where Christian conservatives don’t want liberal elites telling them what to do.

I don't want to start WWIII around here but those who object to provide services to couples outside the traditional concept of marriage (for millennia and in all high cultures, not their decline) do so because it violates the spirit and letter of their Bible. You can count in one billion Muslims who would also agree that its formal institution has to do with biology, the recognition of family ties which has been proven time and again to benefit children.

Of course as human society is flawed and imperfect, yes, there are abusive parents, etc., but dismantling the institution and making the term meaningless so as to encompass any kind of union, is not in the best interest of society.  I don't know what the figures are now, but living together is just as preferred among hetero couples, so about 50% don't want it. So why for goodness sake should someone else's concept be forced down a pastry maker's throat? It is a violation of conscience and religious freedom. 

The Masterpiece bakery that lost 40% of its business over the last 5 years, says they do not make Halloween or Divorce cakes either. They have every right to refuse. Discrimination is not a dirty word.
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