Author Topic: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread  (Read 3251 times)

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Offline Jo498

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2017, 10:50:29 AM »
The great error of Christianity is to imagine that it is possible to exist independently​ of God.
This not Christian teaching. There are christian mystics as well (and in my impression all mystic teachings seem to converge to something rather similar, besides the Abrahamitic religions, Vedanta and Buddhism (at least some schools of the last two) this also includes pagan Neoplatonism and probably more) and even non-mystic christians hold of course that nothing is independent of God as He keeps everything in existence.
Although admittedly the material universe and humans are probably conceived as more independent in traditional Christianity than in some other traditions. Roughly speaking, God delegates some of his power of creation to the creatures so they can partake actively, e.g. in making more creatures.
(This relative independence could be one reason why only the Christian tradition developed modern natural science: Nature can be studied independently but it is understandable because it was created by a rational God.)
Struck by the sounds before the sun,
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2017, 11:04:55 AM »
Actually, the mystics will tell you that the universe has wonders and mysteries far beyond the imagination of any human.

My statement, that the universe has mysteries beyond the imagination of mystics, has been objectively established: Their myths and and speculations have been superseded by observations and discoveries that were, in fact, far beyond the mystics' imaginations. What you claim the mystics tell us, on the other hand, is internally fallacious, self-refuting bullshit, since supporting it would require stating the unimaginable.

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2017, 11:09:34 AM »
Who really cares? Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs. Anyone who tries to refute or disagree with someone else is barking up the wrong tree IMHO. You guys really need to give it a rest. I don’t think ThatFabulousAlien meant for this thread to turn into this kind of argumentative tug-of-war.
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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2017, 11:19:34 AM »
My statement, that the universe has mysteries beyond the imagination of mystics, has been objectively established: Their myths and and speculations have been superseded by observations and discoveries that were, in fact, far beyond the mystics' imaginations. What you claim the mystics tell us, on the other hand, is internally fallacious, self-refuting bullshit, since supporting it would require stating the unimaginable.

Ahem.
I pointed out the fact that "mystics" find reality to be beyond anyone's imagination, including their own. Your original statement is a subset of mine. So if my statement is fallacious self refuting...so is yours.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2017, 11:25:28 AM »
Not a thread to argue about these subjects

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Offline NikF

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2017, 11:44:31 AM »
"I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill. I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my fellow human or hate him, without my decision to choose that opinion. The harm is done in my response to their actions, not in their actions."

e: years and years ago I used to read that every morning before I'd go out for my run. Initially I found what it contains to be a little difficult to put into practice. But as with most things in life it was simply a case of allowing time and patience to do their work and then I could begin to reap the benefits.

Quote

Much good nutrition, there. But in one regard, at least, I think it may be a shade naïf. Ingratitude, violence, treachery, envy, uncharity are at times the work or character of people who do, in fact, know good from ill.


I'm not very good at explaining myself. So apologies beforehand if the following isn't very clear or perhaps even seems condescending.

..."people who do, in fact, know good from ill."

That's their nature. And I can't do anything about that. I can only choose how I react to what they do.

Who a person is and what they believe and how they act upon it is the result of so many variables throughout their life. A part of that could be to lie, steal, mislead, manipulate, abuse etc. At some point in their life they found they could do any of these things and live peacefully with themselves after the fact. That's their nature.

I can steal my neighbour's bandwidth. I know that he won't be physically or emotionally hurt by this, that he probably won't even notice and so I won't get caught. But because I know the difference between real good and ill it means I won't steal his bandwidth because to steal it isn't my nature.
If my neighbour goes ahead and steals my bandwidth it's wrong, but because he's ignorant of real good and ill he can live with the theft. That's his nature. I can't do anything about that other to choose how I react -
I can speak to him, calmy explaining that his act is wrong. That's the good thing to do.
I can beat him until he screams, calmly explaining that his act is wrong. That's the ill/wrong thing to do.

At this point during similar discussions (on other message boards) I'm often asked the same old questions, usually by people who already know my answer yet choose to go ahead anyway... My reply is that no, this does not mean I approve of psychopaths, genocide, child or animal abuse, slavery, polluting the seas, insurance salesmen etc.

I'm responsible for how I react. Or more exactly, I'm responsible for who I am, how I behave, how I treat others, and how I live my life. No excuses. I'd like to add this quote by Viktor Frankl which I feel sums it up far better than I ever could.
“Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”

« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 01:45:42 PM by NikF »
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Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2017, 12:08:44 PM »
As I understand it, the big miracle of Fatima revolved around a group of dancing suns.  It would seem to me that optical effects from the atmosphere could explain most of it, and the psychology of crowds explain the rest.

The most convincing visions are often the least documented and most private.   One reason I think Mohammed was a true visionary (which a lot of people refuse to admit) was his initial reaction: he thought he was going insane

Most interesting. Thanks for your posts.

"I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill. I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my fellow human or hate him, without my decision to choose that opinion. The harm is done in my response to their actions, not in their actions."

Much good nutrition, there. But in one regard, at least, I think it may be a shade naïf. Ingratitude, violence, treachery, envy, uncharity are at times the work or character of people who do, in fact, know good from ill.


I want to thank everyone, really, because it's a topic on which passions will perforce run warm, but there has been reasonable decorum.
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Offline BasilValentine

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2017, 12:36:09 PM »
Exactly, this is why I was reluctant to create this thread as I stated in the OP.
There are plenty of other forums that you can have religious debates, I'm not interested in that.
I'm not a religious person myself and I don't believe in dogma. I am interested in many ideas, concepts and perspectives offered by some religions, philosophers, occultists and mystics though.

This thread was finally created when I was in a very "enlightened" mood, I think the world needs more love and understanding when it comes down to it. Not a relationship or sexual kind of love but a love that recognises our imperfections and shows compassion, understanding and honesty without expecting anything.

I'm not here to preach, I hate preachers. I want to hear your views and philosophies... without bickering

You are right. My apologies. Proceed …

Offline Mirror Image

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2017, 12:38:37 PM »
My beliefs can be summed up this way: I believe there’s a divine entity that created everything. I have absolutely zero use for religion, but I loathe religious zealots who try to tell me otherwise. The end.
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kishnevi

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2017, 01:06:15 PM »
You are right. My apologies. Proceed …

And mine as well.

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Karl Henning, Ph.D.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline k a rl h e nn i ng

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 06:43:48 AM »
A recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute found: “A majority (53%) of Americans oppose allowing businesses that provide wedding services, such as catering, flowers, and wedding cakes, to refuse services to same-sex couples, compared to about four in ten (41%) who say they would support allowing these wedding-based businesses to refuse services to same-sex couples for religious reasons.” However, “White Protestants are unique to the extent they believe wedding-based businesses should be allowed to refuse serving same-sex couples. Nearly two-thirds (65%) of white evangelical Protestants and nearly half (49%) of white mainline Protestants believe businesses that provide wedding services should be allowed to refuse services to same-sex couples.” One wonders whether this isn’t so much about religion but rather another battle line in the culture wars, where Christian conservatives don’t want liberal elites telling them what to do.
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http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
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His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Offline drogulus

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2017, 08:27:31 AM »
It took only two pages to break the rule.

     There is no philosophy without argument. Its history is composed of the arguments philosophers have made. It's what they do, and what they are remembered for.

     A.J. Ayer, an important 20th century philosopher, wrote a book with the title The Meaning Of Life.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 11:27:51 PM »
A recent poll by the Public Religion Research Institute found: “A majority (53%) of Americans oppose allowing businesses that provide wedding services, such as catering, flowers, and wedding cakes, to refuse services to same-sex couples, compared to about four in ten (41%) who say they would support allowing these wedding-based businesses to refuse services to same-sex couples for religious reasons.” However, “White Protestants are unique to the extent they believe wedding-based businesses should be allowed to refuse serving same-sex couples. Nearly two-thirds (65%) of white evangelical Protestants and nearly half (49%) of white mainline Protestants believe businesses that provide wedding services should be allowed to refuse services to same-sex couples.” One wonders whether this isn’t so much about religion but rather another battle line in the culture wars, where Christian conservatives don’t want liberal elites telling them what to do.

I don't want to start WWIII around here but those who object to provide services to couples outside the traditional concept of marriage (for millennia and in all high cultures, not their decline) do so because it violates the spirit and letter of their Bible. You can count in one billion Muslims who would also agree that its formal institution has to do with biology, the recognition of family ties which has been proven time and again to benefit children.

Of course as human society is flawed and imperfect, yes, there are abusive parents, etc., but dismantling the institution and making the term meaningless so as to encompass any kind of union, is not in the best interest of society.  I don't know what the figures are now, but living together is just as preferred among hetero couples, so about 50% don't want it. So why for goodness sake should someone else's concept be forced down a pastry maker's throat? It is a violation of conscience and religious freedom. 

The Masterpiece bakery that lost 40% of its business over the last 5 years, says they do not make Halloween or Divorce cakes either. They have every right to refuse. Discrimination is not a dirty word.
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Offline zamyrabyrd

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2017, 04:50:16 AM »
This not Christian teaching. There are christian mystics as well (and in my impression all mystic teachings seem to converge to something rather similar, besides the Abrahamitic religions, Vedanta and Buddhism (at least some schools of the last two) this also includes pagan Neoplatonism and probably more) and even non-mystic christians hold of course that nothing is independent of God as He keeps everything in existence.
Although admittedly the material universe and humans are probably conceived as more independent in traditional Christianity than in some other traditions. Roughly speaking, God delegates some of his power of creation to the creatures so they can partake actively, e.g. in making more creatures.
(This relative independence could be one reason why only the Christian tradition developed modern natural science: Nature can be studied independently but it is understandable because it was created by a rational God.)

I do agree with you. On the more advanced levels of Christianity, it is admitted the convergence of religious experience. That is why intolerance is so stupid. Religion is primarily about subjective experience although there are generally agreed upon universal moral laws. 

Now I am reading in English, the "Lotus Sutra" which is important in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism. Once one gets past the cultural differences in symbolism, speaking in hundreds of millions of worlds and enlightened beings, there are similarities in the Western scientific assessment of vast swaiths of the universe, in outer space and on the micro level. Moral parables are also similar, some having to do with a prodigal son who doesn't know his worth and who is led to it gently by care and compassion.
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Offline vandermolen

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2017, 10:35:40 AM »
My beliefs can be summed up this way: I believe there’s a divine entity that created everything. I have absolutely zero use for religion, but I loathe religious zealots who try to tell me otherwise. The end.
I'm pretty close to this position. Taoism makes a lot of sense to me. Writers I admire are Rollo May 'Man's Search for Himself', Erich Fromm 'Man for Himself' and Sheldon Kopp 'If you Meet the Buddha on the Road Kill Him'. All these books have influenced me, I like to think, in a positive way. All are American authors.
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Offline 71 dB

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2017, 02:40:01 PM »
My beliefs can be summed up this way: I believe there’s a divine entity that created everything.

Who do you believe greated the divine entity that created everything? If you say divine entities don't need greators then how come everything needs a creator? If you say everything needs a creator then the creator need too, because such a creator must be more complex than the creation. If there is a supercreator that created the creator, that supercreator must have a hypercreator because it is even more complex. The line of creators must be infinite. Doesn't sound like a rational assumption. However, if you believe that everything does not need a creator, you have much simpler and logically sound construction. Everything just is and there are no divine creators outside our vivid imagination. That's what I believe. Why everything just is? I believe it's because "nothingness" is impossible. "Nothing" is a human concept that doesn't exist in real world. Even empty space contains bubbling quantum energy. Something must exist and it doesn't need divine creators.
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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2017, 02:43:31 PM »
It's turtles all the way down!
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Offline nodogen

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2017, 02:15:23 AM »
...Sheldon Kopp 'If you Meet the Buddha on the Road Kill Him'. All these books have influenced me, I like to think, in a positive way.

...from Kopp's "laundrey list"...

We are already dying, and we will be dead for a long time.

Nothing lasts.

It is a random universe to which we bring meaning.

Evil can be displaced, but never eradicated, as all solutions breed new problems.

The only victory lies in surrender to oneself.

Learn to forgive yourself, again and again and again and again.

Offline Florestan

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Re: Religion, Philosophy, The divine and The Self Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2017, 02:28:41 AM »
...from Kopp's "laundrey list"...

We are already dying, and we will be dead for a long time.

Nothing lasts.

It is a random universe to which we bring meaning.

Evil can be displaced, but never eradicated, as all solutions breed new problems.

The only victory lies in surrender to oneself.

Learn to forgive yourself, again and again and again and again.

Do they apply to politics as well?  ;D
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